Permanently Kicked out of Practicum

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Hi, nurses. I just made this account in order to write my second post. Despite a spotless record as a nursing student, an incident today at clinical may have forever crushed my hopes of ever becoming a nurse. So I'm not a nurse, and I may not even be a nursing student after tomorrow, but I had to come here and seek advice from people in this profession.

On 6/10/2019 at 8:48 PM, tonyl1234 said:

Then what are we there for if we can't talk about what's going on and ask questions? Seriously, I can watch a surgery on youtube 100% free. If I'm watching a surgery, I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to talk to another student about the procedure, BECAUSE I'M THERE TO LEARN!

When you work at these hospitals, you accept that there's going to be students. This story and your comment just sounds like way too much ego form people who forget that they used to be students too.

They are there to learn, I am unsure how loud they were talking during the discussion about the procedure, but then they started talking about their school and what else they've seen. That's completely inappropriate in that situation, especially if you know the nurse is already miffed at you. I saw a c-section with someone in my cohort. We whispered things to each other like "can you see?" and "wow" We asked any questions we had at the end when the surgeon had time to talk to us. (Though really, the 2 surgeons were discussing taxes DURING the surgery, but it is their surgery, we were just observing and learning)

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Specializes in Addictions, Psych.
1 hour ago, tonyl1234 said:

The school would have an official record that she was kicked out of building for talking. If there isn't a clearly communicated policy on that, she already won.

But she wasn't "kicked out of the building for talking." She was potentially disruptive during an invasive medical procedure after being warned twice.

The hospital is within their right to remove a student, and the school cannot force a clinical site to take back a student.

Litigation is pointless. It won't make the OP graduate any faster considering they have not completed the clinical component of their class and would need to retake it anyway.

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It's not about when she graduates, it's about THE COST. You understand that those student loans have to be paid back, right? Unless there is a clearly communicated policy on having any discussion in the OR, it's very easy for her to win back the money that this cost her.

Policies have to be COMMUNICATED and followed and CONSISTENT. This is literally why you get handbooks for every job you ever get and why your school had handbooks... If the clinical site didn't do an orientation setting up their policy, well that's their fault, they lost already. Otherwise, she has a very easy case that she was arbitrarily kicked out.

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

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Specializes in Addictions, Psych.
6 minutes ago, tonyl1234 said:

It's not about when she graduates, it's about THE COST. You understand that those student loans have to be paid back, right? Unless there is a clearly communicated policy on having any discussion in the OR, it's very easy for her to win back the money that this cost her.

Policies have to be COMMUNICATED and followed and CONSISTENT. This is literally why you get handbooks for every job you ever get and why your school had handbooks... If the clinical site didn't do an orientation setting up their policy, well that's their fault, they lost already. Otherwise, she has a very easy case that she was arbitrarily kicked out.

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

She was having a social conversation. She was asked to stop. She chose not to. This isn't a legal issue.

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Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
49 minutes ago, tonyl1234 said:

Policies have to be COMMUNICATED and followed and CONSISTENT. This is literally why you get handbooks for every job you ever get and why your school had handbooks... If the clinical site didn't do an orientation setting up their policy, well that's their fault, they lost already. Otherwise, she has a very easy case that she was arbitrarily kicked out.

Except you will never find a policy that covers every specific situation- that is why they are broadly written. Still waiting for you to provide a case that sets precedent where you think this student has a shot of winning.

50 minutes ago, tonyl1234 said:

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

Most surgeons who talk and listen to music also know when they need to stop to concentrate or ask the circulator to turn off the music. And the staff in the room, through their experience, also know when it's time to be quiet. Students don't have that "OR ear"/instinct. The student was warned; the student's conversation was about extraneous topics. She was given several chances to stop her conversation but chose to continue.

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Specializes in Mental Health.
59 minutes ago, tonyl1234 said:

It's not about when she graduates, it's about THE COST. You understand that those student loans have to be paid back, right? Unless there is a clearly communicated policy on having any discussion in the OR, it's very easy for her to win back the money that this cost her.

Policies have to be COMMUNICATED and followed and CONSISTENT. This is literally why you get handbooks for every job you ever get and why your school had handbooks... If the clinical site didn't do an orientation setting up their policy, well that's their fault, they lost already. Otherwise, she has a very easy case that she was arbitrarily kicked out.

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

Does your school not have a policy that you need to follow the rules of the facility that your clinical is at?

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The talk of a lawsuit is nonsense. There is most certainly language in the student handbook to the effect of "while in clinical facilities, students will follow the directives of facility staff at all times. Failure to do so may result in failure of the class and/or permanent expulsion from the facility and university." The student ignored the directions of the OR staff not once, but several times.

As far as "the COST of the class" being a loss for the student, I can say from experience with lawsuits that TIME IS MONEY. The time this student would lose while diddling around with a lawsuit is time she could be spending focusing on school and graduation, getting a job and working. Anything that delays her graduation is going to cost her money in terms of future salary, not to mention the other heavy costs of being involved in litigation.

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1 hour ago, tonyl1234 said:

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

Even surgeons who like to talk or play music during surgery will have moments when they ask for quiet. I'm often asked to pause the music when a surgeon is in a tricky spot and needs to concentrate. I'd like to see what would happen in my OR if I didn't respect a request to stop talking during a surgery-it wouldn't go well. Of course, I would never be that inconsiderate.

There is probably no language in the school handbook that lists 100 specific offenses that most would agree would get a student kicked out of a facility. That is why broad language can usually be found in most employee and student handbooks so that they are covered for a large range of incidents.

Let's use our common sense here.

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One of our classmates who failed out of school was reported to have started a lawsuit against the school. We never heard from, or saw her again. I doubt she prevailed or she would have reappeared in the two years it took for the class to finish school.

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Specializes in Addictions, Psych.
On 7/3/2019 at 4:11 PM, tonyl1234 said:

And potentially disruptive? Most surgeons listen to music and BS while they're doing the surgery. For them to make that claim, it has to be outside of when they'd normally talk to each other, which by the way the story sounds, just isn't case. If they were talking, her conversation is fine, unless, again, there is a clearly communicated policy.

She was watching a C-section. The patient is usually conscious...I doubt the surgeons were talking about nonsense and listening to music.

Let's not forget about the patient here, too, who agreed to let a student observe the birth of her child and was treated to the lovely sounds of an irrelevant conversation during a special moment.

It's a tough lesson to learn with such crappy consequences, but it is what it is.

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1 hour ago, WhaleTails said:

She was watching a C-section. The patient is usually conscious...I doubt the surgeons were talking about nonsense and listening to music.

Let's not forget about the patient here, too, who agreed to let a student observe the birth of her child and was treated to the lovely sounds of an irrelevant conversation during a special moment.

It's a tough lesson to learn with such crappy consequences, but it is what it is.

That's a good point. Your second paragraph is also true and is one I made way back as well. The moment a couple brings a child into the world is a very intimate, precious experience that should be respected by all the parties in the room.

While I think failing the student from the course was overly harsh, I understand the principle involved.

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On 7/3/2019 at 5:12 PM, Rionoir said:

Does your school not have a policy that you need to follow the rules of the facility that your clinical is at?

Yes, and the facility has an orientation process where all of their rules are specifically communicated to us. I don't get what you're not understanding that the rule has to be CLEARLY COMMUNICATED. "Following the rules of the facility" only holds up if the facility expressly communicated their rules to the students. If I get kicked out for something, I can't sue, because I SIGNED off that I received the rules of the facility and went through the orientation process. Which runs back to my original point that if the rule was not specifically communicated to her, then she should talk to a lawyer. Because you CANNOT just make up the rules as you go, that's illegal in employment law.

FFS this is literally why you have orientation and get that huge packet of papers to sign. Even if it's unit policy, once again, it has to be clearly and specifically communicated to ALL students.

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