Patients families dictating care and treatment

Nurses General Nursing

Published

I am a new manager in an LTACH facility. We have critical care/acute care patients here for about 3 weeks. It's a for profit facility where it is very kiss-butt customer service oriented, but I believe it is beginning to compromise patient care. There is one patient who's daughter is an LPN in a nursing home. She is nasty and mean and thinks she can actually make orders. Well, the Dr. got sick of her, every time she "orders" something he writes it. I have dealt with this woman on numerous occasions. Many disagreements, but our CEO want sus to kiss these peoples butts. This time, I got angry. She went out of our facility for a same day wound debridement. Then she gets back and the daughter insists on her getting a PICC line and start her on an anticoagulant. Tuseday was the debridement, wednesday the anticoagulant was begun, thursday was the picc(where she started with me because i wouldn't let the wound vac leave the hospital, we are not supposed to, I eventually gave in only beacuse there was a code and the procedure was being held up over this) then friday I walk in to work and she bleeding big time from her sacral wound!!!! I am assisting the house md in stiching it (yes, I am nurse manager who gets active, bot just sits on my lazy butt despite all the work I have to do) I tell him she is on arixtra. he is shocked ot hear this. I was ****** it was started. but the Dr ordered it because the daughter said to, fresh post a major debridement! And she was oozing at the PICC site too:)

The another family member keeps complaining about the care of his father. His father is vented, nothing really upstairs. The patient spikes a fever, and is compensating against it and he is freaking out that the nruse didn't stay at his beside while the fever was breaking. *****? The nurse did everything right. Checked the temp, say the spike, gave tylenol and drew BC as ordered, called the ID and even called the house DR bc the patient was in mild resp distress while the RT was at the bedside. he is timing everything... the nurse waited by the phone whens he paged the house dr so she can explain the situtation. The RT was there. Well, the son flipped about everything. Well, in my eyes, everything that was done was done correctly. The nurse is a seasoned nurse who knows what she is doing. The son doesn't understand the process of a fever breaking. The sweat is normal. She HR being high at the beginning of the fever is normal, the way to take it down is to take the fever down. All this was explained. And then he is convinced his father is being fed too much. He thinks his stomach is too disteneded. Feeding only at 30cc/hr. Belly soft, positive BS, having BM's, no residual. feel we should stop the feeding. WHy? So his wounds don't heal? me and the director fo quality insurance handled him. She wasnted ot apologize for everything. I did not. I felt everything done was appropriate. If we apologize to make him happy,t hen it makes it look like we are doing something wrong. I explained the natural process to him, everything in laymans turns and said sorry if you don't feel like this situation waS handled correctly, but it was.

Sorry for the long vent. I believe in family members being involved in the care, but not dictating it. We are the medical professionals. The dr's have to stop encouraging this. And customer service is customer service, but not when it compromises care. Anyone agree?

NO matter what you do . Families often try to run the show. I have just accepted it. What is needed is a doctor with a pair who is willing to speak to the daughter and explain that although her input is needed, he write the orders. Period. I have NEVER met a SNF LVN who was capable of safely writing orders or think out of the box. I have seen SNF LVN's hold life saving antibiotics because the doctor didn't specifically write clearly enough a dose. I have seen them hold... meds for clarification and never call anyone. One of my hospice patients who had pneumonia, was probably going to pass anyway. Them holding a med, and calling the MD went on for 3 days! I had another SNF LVN who got orders for a Duragesic patch at 3:00 on afternoon. It was delivered at 8pm. It was held until the next morning to start at 9am....becuase that is how that SNF worked. Meds ordered scheduled times... started the next day at 9am. The patient had cancer. Do you think the family was happy? no. The family knew all about it just becaues they sat bedside 24/7. I had a one and one with the DON. Professionally I explained, I'd like the rataionale explained why? a new pain medication was held from a General Inpatient Hospice Patient.. the family is aware and they are ready to take thier complaints to where it matters...

These are mistakes made by LVN"s in a snf world. Not all are as simple minded as this. But I have a hard time taking the dtr who is on your first patient seriously. 1 year of nursing school has given her huge huge case of delusional grandeur.

I have seen just as many mistakes made by RNs in snf's as well. Don't cut down every LPN just because they are trying to cover their butt. You do not know if they were getting in trouble because of people like you.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.

i sympathize with you. i run into it in my own practice all of the time, but the worst episode of families directing care was when my own father was hospitalized. my sister, a nurse executive who is used to giving orders and having them followed was running the staff ragged demanding things like a cot for my mother to spend the night (mother had dementia and shouldn't have been spending the night because that meant the nurses had to watch out for her and not just my father -- and mom was more mobile!) and better meal trays for my father who was intubated. (mom ate them.) she was so busy harassing the staff about the weight of dad's blanket that she missed (and so did the poor put upon nurse) the tombstone t waves. worse that that, she didn't "get it" when it was explained to her that tombstone t's are more important than guest trays for my mother or the weight of dad's blanket. she was still spouting about customer service when dad was on his way to the cath lab. now she's directing mom's care from 2000 miles away.

i'm not sure what the solution is -- certainly no mere bedside nurse like myself could contain my sister -- but i certainly feel your pain!

Specializes in ICU.

Oh boy Ruby, I'm sorry. It's a shame, it really is a shame. Medicine is all customer service now. I don't think there really is a solution other than the doctors stepping up. But, not that I am defending the Dr., but he knows this woman is crazy and probably felt like if she did get a DVT, she would sue him.

It's getting so out of control now. I am just get upset about the way some administration is handling this also. Like the way you mentioned. I am a new nurse manager yes, but kissing their butts make you look like you don't know your job and this nurse knows her job. I disagreed to make a big deal out of it and apologize. I only said I am sorry if you are not happy, but everything was done right and our nurses will continue to give the good care they are giving.

I was sad when my grandfather was ill and my dad was trying to manage it and no one was informing him of anything and they were just having him sign consents for this and that. My dad kept coming to me asking me to explain them. My grandfather lived like a teenager up until the time he fell ill. Pegs and the such were not something he would have wanted, although henever did take the time to tell anyone... They did try to peg him but couldn't because of a hernia. They were going ot have to do it surgically. They didn't explain to my dad he probably wouldn't come off the vent if they intubated him in surgery. My dad called me and asked if he should do this. i said no. please, put me ont he phone with a dr. I asked him if he would come off the vent. he said probably nto with the CHF and pleural effusions. I explained ot me day, pegging him because he won't eat just to have him needing a trach to survive is not a quality of life. Especially this man. he decided to not do it, and made him DNR as i suggested. The next morning he never woke up, he died in his sleep. Much better than going during surgery for a peg.

Hey guys, I just re-read the OP's post again and I don't think she was intentionally torching LPNs. If I am reading it correctly, the daughter of the OP's pt happened to be an LPN. She could have been an RN and the scenario would have been the same. I think the OP was simply frustrated that the daughter, who was a healthcare worker, was running roughshod over the doc. I think the fault here lies with the doc.

I didn't feel the OP was bashing LPN's at all. A later poster took the opportunity to do that in their response though and I think it was rude and hurtful personally. There are many well educated, competent and caring LPN's that do not deserve to be torn down that way!!

Specializes in Hospital, med-surg, hospice.

One thing not mentioned, was that even though we are nurses with some knowlege, we can't be objective when it is our family..its good to be informed and involved, but let the nurses and doctors do their job! :nurse:

Specializes in ICU.

It defintely wasn't be bashing LPN's. I thI was bashing her. I mentioned it,because she thought she was the know it all nurse and could scare us because she is in the medical field. However, I do feel I may have some better critical thinking as an ICU RN than her as a LTC LPN. Just like the maternity nurse knows alot more than I do in her specialty. But no one is better than the next, although this woman is a miserable dumbass know it all.

I think what I posted lacked insight and proper response. I know nurses are human, errors are made and have been made. My point is that the LVN or LPN has no authority, experience or ability to run the show. The fault lays with the MD who is willing to be dictated too by a dominant family member who is completely off base as far as her role.

Sorry about the comments that may of offended. It seriously was not intended.

Specializes in Trauma Surgery, Nursing Management.
I didn't feel the OP was bashing LPN's at all. A later poster took the opportunity to do that in their response though and I think it was rude and hurtful personally. There are many well educated, competent and caring LPN's that do not deserve to be torn down that way!!

You are right. The OP was NOT bashing LPNs. However, the responses on this thread from LPNs had a tone of defensiveness, and I just wanted to clarify that the OP was NOT bashing LPNs. Why on earth would we bash LPNs? They are WONDERFUL!

Specializes in LTC Family Practice.
I think what I posted lacked insight and proper response. I know nurses are human, errors are made and have been made. My point is that the LVN or LPN has no authority, experience or ability to run the show. The fault lays with the MD who is willing to be dictated too by a dominant family member who is completely off base as far as her role.

Sorry about the comments that may of offended. It seriously was not intended.

Still:banghead:, I hate to tell you this but you don't seem to know much about LPN/LVN's or our education and it's very apparent you have no love loss for us. Yes we do have the authority, experience and ability to "run the show" as you say. Many many many LPN/LVN's are floor supers, shift supers, etc. in LTC, SNF's, school nursing and clinics just to name a few. I worked in clinics, I not only "ran the show" on some occasions supervising other LPN's, MA's and office staff, I was the clinic manager in one instance. I currently volunteer at the Red Cross donor center and the shift supervisor is often.......you guessed it an LPN, they also run remote mobile units supervising phlebotomists and other LPN's. We might not be welcome in many hospitals today but we certainly have the skills, knowledge and ability to "run the show" in many other areas of nursing. As many of the posters in this thread have stated they support LPN/LVN's and recognize us as skilled nurses. Noey67, please tell me where you work so I make sure I'm not anywhere near there, your distain for LPN/LVN's remains no matter that you "say" your intention is not to offend - it does.

You need to understand there are good nurses and bad nurses no matter if they are LPN/LVN's or RN's.

Specializes in tele, oncology.

Just to clarify...I certainly didn't think that the OP was bashing us LPNs...just expressing extreme frustration that someone who should certainly know better is being such a PITA as to interfere with safe care delivery which perhaps made her choosing wording that could be misconstrued, and that she felt that THIS particular LPN is sticking her nose in an area outside of her expertise at the least. We've all had to deal with that issue I'm sure.

There was another poster who referred to LPNs in a general sense as having "delusions of grandeur after one year of school" (paraphrased) that made me feel the need to defend our status as valuable members of healthcare delivery. And I'm going to stop there and bite my tongue.

Specializes in LTC.

you guys are so entertaining! LOVE this website! :heartbeat

Specializes in RN, BSN, CHDN.

This is a very interesting thread but can we focus on what the OP is discussing and stay on topic please

+ Add a Comment