I recently received a published form from the State of Florida showing that ARNPs increased 22% over the past two years. RNs only increased by 7.4% If you are a new grad wondering why you can't find a position here is your answer. Our NP mills have pumped out too many graduates for the demand of society. I don't have the data to back it up but if this is happening in Florida I would assume it is happening around the nation.
I'm licensed in Florida but moved to California years ago because I could see the tsunami of new graduates slowly starting to erode the wages of established NPs. It's now happening here in California and I have been directly affected. I can count at least another dozen of my NP colleagues around the nation who are complaining of wage deflation happening because new grads will accept a position at almost any wage. Starting wages are below those for RNs in some cases.
For those of you thinking of becoming a NP think and long and hard before you commit your money and your time. The job is enjoyable but the return on investment is declining year after the year with the flooding of the markets. Maybe one day the leaders of our nursing schools will open a book on economics and understand the relationship between supply and demand rather than stuff another useless nursing theory down our throats.
I feel with this thread I"m speaking to a brick wall that won't listen to the truth. That is ok, you can be a sheep and get slaughtered while following the herd. I won't be. I'm very happy. I have a great life and CHOSE to work in turd town. It was my choice.
I learned in my former business career that sometimes you just have to walk away from a client when their belief system is unable to be changed. I have to walk away from this. If YOU want to convince RNs that now is a good time to become a NP then have at it. I"m here telling the the truth from the trenches that it isn't.
I'm not being negative. If you view the truth as negative then by all means take it with a grain of salt. Hopefully you are intelligent enough to not believe a recruiter at face value. I also hope you don't believe every email you see coming from a recruiter. Sometimes the truth hurts. I don't think $200,000 is enough for a any NP who brings in over $1,000,000 in gross revenues but if you wish to accept low wages go for it. My business degree has taught me better.
I live in a low cost area considered rural by many, although probably some 250,000 people live within a half hour drive of my house. But we don't have opera, ballet, or the symphony on a regular basis and no Whole Foods, either.
Health care is by far the largest industry here. Prisons are second. And the quality of life is quite good.
We have a Primary Care NP program at the State University here, and when I graduated in 2003, the market was flooded. At the time, I was not looking for or expecting a significant raise.
Fortunately I found work in psych, and eventually proved my worth. My first job paid less than 50k, not kidding. I am now making almost 4x that, in large part because I am the rare psychiatric bird.
That same state school is now looking at adding a Post Master's PMHNP program. Aside from the difficulty of getting clinical hours, I can't imagine how 10 new PMHNP graduates a year in this area will affect my perceived value.
It worries me how easy it is to get the NP degree. The main obstacle seems to be finding your own preceptors. The preceptors are not vetted in many programs. They might be people who graduated last year.
It worries me. Most people who get teaching certificates never get a public school teaching job. The teaching market is totally flooded because there is almost no barrier to entry. I have known several would be teachers who became RN's for the income, myself included.
The future of NPs worries me. I strongly dislike the DNP as I feel it is a horse manure program. The quality of NP education should be increased, not the quantity.
I am approaching retirement age and saving like mad, which I couldn't do if I made 110k.
An acquaintance was a failed lawyer. That job market is flooded, and people in the bottom half of the totem pole can't make a living. The guy had a lot of gumption and he became an NP. Now he was paying for 2 graduate school loans.
He committed suicide earlier this year. He was in his 50's and just didn't see the end of his struggle.
These are just my thoughts.
The large medical clinic here has 12 NP openings at 80k each. They would rather leave the jobs unfilled than raise the pay.
So for prospective NP students, there is a lot to think about.
I have been happy with my career, but there were some definite flukes involved, and it could have easily gone the other way.
Spent the weekend with a MD in my group. Her pay has declined significantly since so many NP's are hitting the market. She makes $125,000 per year. Sounds like a lot right? This lady has 200k plus in student loans and works extra shifts to pay off her debt. She said I should be just as angry as my career choice is decimating right in front of my eyes. She expects to somewhat in the future be replaced by a NP that will work for 75k at least that is what she hears in her hospital (we are all in the SE, so wages are naturally lower).
I do not believe it to be worth dropping 100-200k on a NP degree nor 200-500k on a MD degree. Those days are long over. The docs and NP's at my conference are all going to cash practices. I am doing the same. $65 for a walk in visit. I have to pay rent and everything else on top of this. This career choice was good for a time but pay is declining significantly. RN's making more (most likely in the north and western US).
Spent the weekend with a MD in my group. Her pay has declined significantly since so many NP's are hitting the market. She makes $125,000 per year. Sounds like a lot right? This lady has 200k plus in student loans and works extra shifts to pay off her debt. She said I should be just as angry as my career choice is decimating right in front of my eyes. She expects to somewhat in the future be replaced by a NP that will work for 75k at least that is what she hears in her hospital (we are all in the SE, so wages are naturally lower).
I do not believe it to be worth dropping 100-200k on a NP degree nor 200-500k on a MD degree. Those days are long over. The docs and NP's at my conference are all going to cash practices. I am doing the same. $65 for a walk in visit. I have to pay rent and everything else on top of this. This career choice was good for a time but pay is declining significantly. RN's making more (most likely in the north and western US).
I will say this, she has the luxury of hanging her own shingle where in most states an NP will need a collaborator for the foreseeable future. Even in states where there's truly independent practice, insurance companies still require it. That md will never have the same hurdles. If I was an md and offered 125, I'd be setting up my own shop in a heartbeat
Spent the weekend with a MD in my group. Her pay has declined significantly since so many NP's are hitting the market. She makes $125,000 per year. Sounds like a lot right? This lady has 200k plus in student loans and works extra shifts to pay off her debt. She said I should be just as angry as my career choice is decimating right in front of my eyes. She expects to somewhat in the future be replaced by a NP that will work for 75k at least that is what she hears in her hospital (we are all in the SE, so wages are naturally lower).
I had no idea that NP's were creating a threat to MD jobs, or actually effecting their pay. Competition, sure, in a way. Maybe that is naive of me. I wonder how common situations like these are, though. That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Perhaps it's only for inpatient areas. Also curious if there is a correlation between more CRNA's on the rise/practicing, effecting MDA's compensation as well.
I do not believe it to be worth dropping 100-200k on a NP degree nor 200-500k on a MD degree.
Aren't most NP program tuition rates somewhere in the range of $30-60/K total? Anything more than that is crazy. Are the for-profit programs more than 6 figures?
People are doing NP school full time and borrowing their living expenses. Really crazy, in my view.This is how deep debt occurs.
The majority that are in deep debt I found were RNs who took loans for RN school, quickly moved on to NP school and loaded them across. I met one who during clinical who was having to pay each of her last terms out of pocket because she was at some cap of $140,000. What's crazy is I see U of M Nursing students who were getting into college tuition debt to the tune of 20K+/year for a BSN that would make the same out the door as any other RN regardless of school and arguably almost the same as an ADN (albeit ADN jobs are slowly going away).
That same state school is now looking at adding a Post Master's PMHNP program. Aside from the difficulty of getting clinical hours, I can't imagine how 10 new PMHNP graduates a year in this area will affect my perceived value.
I'm guess this was said tongue in cheek? Because I can tell you exactly how it will go. Why would anyone pay you $200,000 a year when a bright, shiny new DNP, who hasn't worked on day as a nurse or actually anything else, is willing to do it for $100,000. And as you know employers could are less if the person is competent as long as they have the credentials.
I had no idea that NP's were creating a threat to MD jobs, or actually effecting their pay. Competition, sure, in a way. Maybe that is naive of me. I wonder how common situations like these are, though. That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Perhaps it's only for inpatient areas. Also curious if there is a correlation between more CRNA's on the rise/practicing, effecting MDA's compensation as well.
Aren't most NP program tuition rates somewhere in the range of $30-60/K total? Anything more than that is crazy. Are the for-profit programs more than 6 figures?
It is a reality in psychiatry and now the psychiatrists who used to be NP friendly are not so much both due to the tightening up of opportunities and the low quality of the new graduates. Why would a clinic hire a psychiatrist for 2xs the money if they can use NPs?
I am just praying to make it through without a big salary cut. I only have to work a few more years. This area cannot absorb multiple new psych NP graduates if that program goes through. There already is a program 50 miles away that is partly or mostly online. How easy do we have to make it for people?
Sadly the AANC psych boards are a complete joke. My cat could pass that test using his paw randomly.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
I feel with this thread I"m speaking to a brick wall that won't listen to the truth. That is ok, you can be a sheep and get slaughtered while following the herd. I won't be. I'm very happy. I have a great life and CHOSE to work in turd town. It was my choice.
I learned in my former business career that sometimes you just have to walk away from a client when their belief system is unable to be changed. I have to walk away from this. If YOU want to convince RNs that now is a good time to become a NP then have at it. I"m here telling the the truth from the trenches that it isn't.
I'm not being negative. If you view the truth as negative then by all means take it with a grain of salt. Hopefully you are intelligent enough to not believe a recruiter at face value. I also hope you don't believe every email you see coming from a recruiter. Sometimes the truth hurts. I don't think $200,000 is enough for a any NP who brings in over $1,000,000 in gross revenues but if you wish to accept low wages go for it. My business degree has taught me better.
I had over 20 years experience in business and ended up at the VP level in management consulting, a highly competitive field. Never did I hear complaints about the supply of new grads depressing pay. I was responsible for running my own practice. At my last job I had to personally SELL $7 million in revenue, manage execution of the work, personally bill for some of my own time, and manage dozens of people, along with P&L responsibility. My pay was $300K. I was also working 60 hours a week and had to travel extensively across the country and I didn't get paid for my travel time. In the business world, $1 million revenue is nothing. In jobs where I generated $2-5 million in revenue, the pay was $125 to $200 k per year.
Those of you who think careers in business and high tech are so much better, think about those numbers. And you won't be competing with new grads - you'll be competing with people in India, China, Vietnam, etc who are happy to make $25 a day. Business people also wouldn't be putting up this kind of whining about pay. People who want to make more money work harder to get promoted or they get a different job. A business person can ask for a raise based on the value they deliver.
NPs who live in full practice authority states can hang out their own shingle and start their own practice.
Finally, income is also tied to risk. The higher the risk one incurs, the higher the potential payoff. For example, a salesperson who gets no salary and only commission will get a much higher commission rate and can make a boatload of money, because they are incurring more risk. This is another reason locums make more than employees, because the locums has more risk as opposed to permanent employment. The highest risk would be a 1099 contractor (no agency) because they also have to find their own work, are responsible for billing and collections, all their own expenses, etc.
In the business world, a 2x revenue multiple versus salary would be considered extremely generous and unusual. A salaried employee typically makes 10% to 30% of their billings or sales.
Anyone in this country making $100K a year or more is doing very well, except in ridiculous cost of living areas like San Francisco.
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I feel with this thread I"m speaking to a brick wall that won't listen to the truth. That is ok, you can be a sheep and get slaughtered while following the herd. I won't be. I'm very happy. I have a great life and CHOSE to work in turd town. It was my choice.
I learned in my former business career that sometimes you just have to walk away from a client when their belief system is unable to be changed. I have to walk away from this. If YOU want to convince RNs that now is a good time to become a NP then have at it. I"m here telling the the truth from the trenches that it isn't.
I'm not being negative. If you view the truth as negative then by all means take it with a grain of salt. Hopefully you are intelligent enough to not believe a recruiter at face value. I also hope you don't believe every email you see coming from a recruiter. Sometimes the truth hurts. I don't think $200,000 is enough for a any NP who brings in over $1,000,000 in gross revenues but if you wish to accept low wages go for it. My business degree has taught me better.