Opiates Are Not for All Pain

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Hi all,

I am a primary care NP, working with 2 MDs and 2 other NPs. Recently, I had a 90 years old patient, who has post herpetic neuralgia, had shingles 2 years ago. She has h/o diabetes, dementia, sciatica and hypothyroidism. Pt had a fall a year ago, broke her left hip, hemiarthroplasty done. This patient was on oxycodone 5 mg tid prior to the fall for her sciatica, which was tapered off recently in September. After her shingles, she was started on gabapentin 300 mg hs. Patient came this time to the office with her aide, who is with her for 10 years, complaining of neuralgic pain on the left side of her body, more in lt mid back. Aide insisted that gabapentin is not working, patient needs oxycodone back and the patient's daughter is also insisting for oxycodone. I tried to explain the risks, aide would not listen to me. She threw a storm at me. Patient is demented, has no say. I increased the gabapentin to 300mg bid, lidoderm patch for the left mid back and asked her to follow up in a month to see the change. I called the patient's daughter and explained, which she understood. Later, the office manager told me that this aide was collecting patient's medications from the pharmacy, (reported by the pharmacist), who knows whether the patient was getting oxycodone in the past or the aide was using/abusing it? What would you do here?

I mean, I'll agree that I think we sometimes under treat the elderly because we're afraid of over treating them. But I can't tell you how many patients, young and old alike, that I admit a week with OD symptoms from lyrica, neurontin, etc. But IMO, just being elderly doesn't completely r/o any treatment necessarily. If you need to control pain, then you do what you have to do. That doesn't mean they will be completely pain free, but if I can take their pain from an 8 to a 4, then I think we've improved their QOL.

And opioids are a last resort for chronic pain management. They are useful in certain conditions causing acute pain, and may be the right choice for long-term pain related to cancer and its treatments or, in rare cases, noncancer pain that hasn't responded to any other medications. But there are better, more efficacious treatments for neuropathic pain. Further, narcotic contracts and urine testing haven't proven to be effective in controlling diversion. The aide could just give the patient one the day prior to an appointment.

I'd consider a NSAID or Cox-2 inhibitor (again, taking age and renal function into account here). This would be useful if she had an arthritic component to her pain. SNRIs are also an option as Traumarus indicated.

Ultimately, you need to use your clinical assessment skills and judgement to decide what treatment option suits the patient best. We can only offer you so much here.

As usual, 2 competing thoughts come to mind

Cynical: she was diverting and wants her drugs back

Non-cynical: She simply wants her patient to stop hurting and does not understand the complexities of pain management in the elderly. She may have seen that in the past oxy helped the pt's pain, but was subsequently stopped and doesn't understand the logic of that. She may just want the pt to stop complaining of pain feeling helpless to do anything about it.

I do not get this philosophy of being very elderly is pushing it on narcotic pain relief. Yes, I understand where concerns come in as in it could mask some dementia s/s, increase fall risk etc...but if someone is going to be in pain for the rest of their lives they should not have to spend whatever time they have left in constant pain which they likely will more due to the 'War on drugs' part two rather than side effects. Heck, lets talk about the side effects of everything else. Warfarin, the active ingredient in rat poison comes to mind as do anti-hypertensives but when it comes to narcotic pain meds or benzodiazepines doctors begin not treating conditions which will not improve.

As to posters who mentioned the elderly woman's' aide being overly interested in Rx the 90 year-old would have to pee in a cup and have that UA be + for what she is prescribed. While I despise the government intrusion inserting itself into Dr: Pt relationships I think it is a good idea to obtain a urine sample from those who cannot verbalize not receiving their pain medication.

We have gone off the deep end in nit treating pain. My mom had advanced dementia and I respected her wishes in no tube feeds etc...I did ask doc to keep fentanyl patch on in event she had pain she could not verbalize but this was @ 12 years ago, well before the pendulum swung toward not treating anyone.

You'll get it when that opiate you prescribe causes respiratory depression/hospitalization/death and the family sues you over it. People who think we are "under treating" aren't inheriting or forced to contend with patients who have been on high dose opiates and benzos for upwards of decades. We're in primary care trying to correct a long history of mismanagement and stupid medical choices and somehow we're the bad guys.

Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

Elderly patients with issues with pain management like this should be referred to home care, especially when client demented and long term caregiver appears overly involved demanding nacotics. Homecare RN can assess home situation: is patient being cared for properly by aide - encouraged to be up and about, adequate nutrition, or are they being left in one position for hours, forced to stay in bed "due to her pain" only aggravating muscle discomfort from disuse, etc. Pill bottles can be checked to see prescription date, amount left in bottle to see if being given properly or if recent refill. Patients pain can be evaluated in own home setting to assess response to current pain mgmt., need for short term Physical Therapy, instruction in non-pharmaologic pain mgmt, etc and communicate back to provider --all to help give client best quality of life.

My recent Utilization Review experience found that > 50% of clients admitted to homecare had medications missing on admission -biggest issue homecare RN's focused on getting resolved. Hope your patient gets her pain issue resolved.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
You'll get it when that opiate you prescribe causes respiratory depression/hospitalization/death and the family sues you over it. People who think we are "under treating" aren't inheriting or forced to contend with patients who have been on high dose opiates and benzos for upwards of decades. We're in primary care trying to correct a long history of mismanagement and stupid medical choices and somehow we're the bad guys.

Psychiatry also and rarely have I found the person bitterly complaining about "The War on Drugs" not to be seeking an inappropriate, unsafe combination of medications.

Specializes in Flight, ER, Transport, ICU/Critical Care.
I mean, I'll agree that I think we sometimes under treat the elderly because we're afraid of over treating them. But I can't tell you how many patients, young and old alike, that I admit a week with OD symptoms from lyrica, neurontin, etc. But IMO, just being elderly doesn't completely r/o any treatment necessarily. If you need to control pain, then you do what you have to do. That doesn't mean they will be completely pain free, but if I can take their pain from an 8 to a 4, then I think we've improved their QOL.

And opioids are a last resort for chronic pain management. They are useful in certain conditions causing acute pain, and may be the right choice for long-term pain related to cancer and its treatments or, in rare cases, noncancer pain that hasn't responded to any other medications. But there are better, more efficacious treatments for neuropathic pain. Further, narcotic contracts and urine testing haven't proven to be effective in controlling diversion. The aide could just give the patient one the day prior to an appointment.

I'd consider a NSAID or Cox-2 inhibitor (again, taking age and renal function into account here). This would be useful if she had an arthritic component to her pain. SNRIs are also an option as Traumarus indicated.

Ultimately, you need to use your clinical assessment skills and judgement to decide what treatment option suits the patient best. We can only offer you so much here.

There is more to consider with regular NSAID and COX-2 use in anyone other than renal function.

Cardiac & bleeding risk are real. Plus, there can be interactions with other meds.

This caregiver is the person who is with this patient many days and hours (moving, bathing) - and let me tell you folks, there are few things worse than trying to comfort someone SCREAMING in pain knowing it's not going to be ever be treated in a meaningful manner.

Really, multiple known to be painful medical problems, patient can't verbalize reliably and, yet, because the caregiver reports the need for the patient to have opiate pain control back into the mix (however unartfully) alarm bells go off about caregiver diversion.

This patient is 90.

I'd think low dose fentanyl patch that the daughter changes could be a way to go with very limited IR on hand if you really diversion is an issue.

Ensure treatment with the least horrible option.

Used correctly opiates have been safe for many years in most patient population, by most providers.

Crisis? *** It is if you are trying to manage a 90 year old with multiple painful co-morbidities and family wants to keep her from a nursing home. Heck, you make $10 bucks an hour and are really fond of the lady, but how much more will you be able to take?? ***

~ BTW - the first thing they will do once she's in a nursing home is get an order for opiates (untreated pain!) and benzos (sundowning!). Funny stuff.

And pain (untreated or treated poorly) causes lots of bad effects on the body. From cognition, sleep, cardiac/respiratory effects - really everything is impacted.

Bad juju everyone.

:angel:

There is more to consider with regular NSAID and COX-2 use in anyone other than renal function.

Cardiac & bleeding risk are real. Plus, there can be interactions with other meds.

This caregiver is the person who is with this patient many days and hours (moving, bathing) - and let me tell you folks, there are few things worse than trying to comfort someone SCREAMING in pain knowing it's not going to be ever be treated in a meaningful manner.

Really, multiple known to be painful medical problems, patient can't verbalize reliably and, yet, because the caregiver reports the need for the patient to have opiate pain control back into the mix (however unartfully) alarm bells go off about caregiver diversion.

This patient is 90.

I'd think low dose fentanyl patch that the daughter changes could be a way to go with very limited IR on hand if you really diversion is an issue.

Ensure treatment with the least horrible option.

Used correctly opiates have been safe for many years in most patient population, by most providers.

Crisis? *** It is if you are trying to manage a 90 year old with multiple painful co-morbidities and family wants to keep her from a nursing home. Heck, you make $10 bucks an hour and are really fond of the lady, but how much more will you be able to take?? ***

~ BTW - the first thing they will do once she's in a nursing home is get an order for opiates (untreated pain!) and benzos (sundowning!). Funny stuff.

And pain (untreated or treated poorly) causes lots of bad effects on the body. From cognition, sleep, cardiac/respiratory effects - really everything is impacted.

Bad juju everyone.

:angel:

Do I have to list every adverse reaction for a medication on this forum? Should I just write an H&P for this woman to submit. Jeeze people. Chill out. There is no medication I would prescribe that doesnt have a list of possible adverse reactions. It's a risk:benefits ratio.

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.
There is more to consider with regular NSAID and COX-2 use in anyone other than renal function.

Cardiac & bleeding risk are real. Plus, there can be interactions with other meds.

This caregiver is the person who is with this patient many days and hours (moving, bathing) - and let me tell you folks, there are few things worse than trying to comfort someone SCREAMING in pain knowing it's not going to be ever be treated in a meaningful manner.

Really, multiple known to be painful medical problems, patient can't verbalize reliably and, yet, because the caregiver reports the need for the patient to have opiate pain control back into the mix (however unartfully) alarm bells go off about caregiver diversion.

This patient is 90.

I'd think low dose fentanyl patch that the daughter changes could be a way to go with very limited IR on hand if you really diversion is an issue.

Ensure treatment with the least horrible option.

Used correctly opiates have been safe for many years in most patient population, by most providers.

Crisis? *** It is if you are trying to manage a 90 year old with multiple painful co-morbidities and family wants to keep her from a nursing home. Heck, you make $10 bucks an hour and are really fond of the lady, but how much more will you be able to take?? ***

~ BTW - the first thing they will do once she's in a nursing home is get an order for opiates (untreated pain!) and benzos (sundowning!). Funny stuff.

And pain (untreated or treated poorly) causes lots of bad effects on the body. From cognition, sleep, cardiac/respiratory effects - really everything is impacted.

Bad juju everyone.

:angel:

I agree Fentanyl patch is the way to go.

Get the patient's family involved, who should be able to request Urine toxicology to check for diversion. Also, as provider you should be able to order Utox.

Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.

Agree that you should get a UDS for the patient. If she's not positive for opiates you have confirmed your suspicion, but not exactly proved diversion.

Specializes in LTC.

Another possibility is that the elderly lady was snowed on the oxycodone and was easy money for the aide. Now that she is no longer on it, she is likely more alert and more work for the aide.

I offer this option from experience. I work in LTC, and frequently get asked "Does s/he have something you can give them?" When a patient is livelier than usual.

Some aides would prefer patients be knocked out rather than have to "deal" with them. Sad but true.

(For the record, I do not medicate people for staff convenience.)

Specializes in Cardicac Neuro Telemetry.
My first thought was who really wants the oxy?

My first thought as well. In fact, I wonder if the patient herself would even test positive for opiates. There a so many situations of caregivers or family members taking or selling narcotics intended for the elderly patient that it makes my head spin. Narcotics are destroying this country.

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