All this talk of professionalism and being respected by doctors makes me sick.
I am a professional. I am a nurse. My job is to diagnose and treat human responses to illness (care for the sick). I also educate patients, assess their physical condition, and rehabilitate them. Society considers an RN a professional position, so I am a professional. I am not a doctor, I don't work for a doctor; I am not a doctor's assistant. I work for my hospital and my nurse manager.
A doctor is an academically prepared individual who diagnoses and treats medical problems in human beings. We use doctors in caring for patients who have medical problems. We need their medical orders (orders for the patient--not orders to us as in "ordering" us to do something), because we can't legally administer medical interventions without them, why? because we are nurses not doctors!
I'm in the profession of caring for people, especially sick people, and in my case especially sick people with cardiac conditions. So, naturally I have problems with the nurse practioner being considered an "advance practice nurse." In reality they are a doctor's assistant. Our professionalism does not come by being more like a doctor but by being more of a nurse.
I respect doctors, but then I respect patients as well, and I respect strangers on the street. Doctors are not nurses, and I feel they are missing out on the greatest spiritual vocation available. If they think they are above me, professionally, then they are as misguided as the nurse who thinks he's not a professional if he can't write a prescription for amoxacillin.
Umm, let me just say that NOT ALL NURSES are the compassionate beings you propose. What is your problem? You don't like that someone chooses to advance their career however they see fit? And doctor's will fail in the end? You need to see a doctor, a head doctor.
The nurse who can hang with it at the bedside as a nurse is the one who has the highest functioning and the most advanced practice. The NP fights to still be considered a nurse, because that's where the glory is. The NP fights to be considered "advanced practice" because it's obvious they aren't doing nursing any longer and there has to be some explanation that lets them keep their status as a nurse.
Okay I am not an NP but I am a RN workers comp case manager. I did bedside nursing for 12 yrs but wanted to do something different.
My goal is to make sure that injured workers get appropriate treatment of their injuries in a timley manner so that they can get back to work. In other words, I am fosused on outcomes.
I assess, plan, help to implement ,reassess, educate..I thought I was a nurse??? Guess now that I am not at the bedside I have to remove the letters from behind my name..I am sorry but what a bunch of *&(&*(.
While I agree w/ your description of a nurse at the bedside being compassionate, I honestly dont understand how you can say that "Doctors, their PAs and NPs, will always fail in the end. But the kindness and caring of the nurse never fails." In what way do you mean that they fail?
An NP follows the nursing model, thus they retain the ability to be compassionate and to care for the pt as a whole, and not just the disease. Just because they chose to further their education does not make them any less of a nurse. Their foundation is nursing, and they just expanded on that role.
I have worked closely w/ 2 APRN's at a prev hospital, and the experience was a positive one. I only wish that my current hospital had them on staff!!
I say that doctors, their PAs and NPs will always fail, because their task is to dx and tx diseases that lead to human suffering and death. They will always fail at this task. But the compassion of the nurse--the love of one person for another--will never fail, even if the patient should ultimately cross over.
An NP doesn't just choose to further their education; they change roles in the medical paradigm, and still have the audacity to call themselves nurses. I believe this stems from a form of "professional guilt." After all, a CNS is just as educated but can remain on the "nurse" side of the paradigm. Or a DNSc, even though their focus is education and research remain on the nursing side of the fence.
I'm sure NPs want to be considered super-nurses, but all I see them doing in the large hospital where I work is the daily rounds for the doctor. In the sticks, 3 miles from here, an NP may function independently--as a nurse? No. As a physician. NPs don't provide nursing care; that's the bottom line.
Even though I am accused of it, over and over, I am not saying NPs are worthless. I'm saying they are not nurses. NPs are important to physicians. They're important to nurses, too if they can write some orders that will help, but they aren't nurses unless they stop practicing as an NP and go back to doing those things that RNs do. This is my opinion. I don't know what everyone is so upset about--my opinion is not shared by the nursing profession. So, it really shouldn't matter that much.
You seem to be conveniently forgetting that Luke, a physician, wrote one of the gospels and there are metaphors in the bible where Christ calls himself a "physician" and sinners the "sick". It is therefore quite a stretch to say that Jesus endorses our profession as better/above another.
I think that as Christians how we live our lives as a whole is much more important than chosen profession/vocation. As nurses we are fortunate that our chosen profession has a "built in" service component which probably attracted many of us to nursing (whether we be christian, religious, moral/humanistic, etc). However, I have known many accountants, lawyers, postal workers, plumbers etc. who give of their time and money to help others and have reached just as many people if not more than I have in my time spent in the hospital. I don't think it's the best attitude that nurses and bedside nurses alone own "compassion". Besides just not being true, the attitude is alienating to other healthcare professions. I still think we nurses do compassion best :) ( a little professional pride here). I don't think we are the only ones and I have been a witness to compassion from others in the healthcare field. I doubt they're giving out free passes into heaven b/c one happens to be a nurse--LOL! But it's a nice thought.
Our jobs are different from MDs/DOs (we can all agree on that). Granted NPs do blur that line a bit. But anyone in the know realizes that NPs are not just mini-MDs or MD assistants and bring all of the wonderful aspects of the nursing model into diagnosing and treating illness.
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
Originally posted by Plato
I say that doctors, their PAs and NPs will always fail, because their task is to dx and tx diseases that lead to human suffering and death. They will always fail at this task. But the compassion of the nurse--the love of one person for another--will never fail, even if the patient should ultimately cross over.
An NP doesn't just choose to further their education; they change roles in the medical paradigm, and still have the audacity to call themselves nurses. I believe this stems from a form of "professional guilt." After all, a CNS is just as educated but can remain on the "nurse" side of the paradigm. Or a DNSc, even though their focus is education and research remain on the nursing side of the fence.
I'm sure NPs want to be considered super-nurses, but all I see them doing in the large hospital where I work is the daily rounds for the doctor. In the sticks, 3 miles from here, an NP may function independently--as a nurse? No. As a physician. NPs don't provide nursing care; that's the bottom line.
Even though I am accused of it, over and over, I am not saying NPs are worthless. I'm saying they are not nurses. NPs are important to physicians. They're important to nurses, too if they can write some orders that will help, but they aren't nurses unless they stop practicing as an NP and go back to doing those things that RNs do. This is my opinion. I don't know what everyone is so upset about--my opinion is not shared by the nursing profession. So, it really shouldn't matter that much.
I'm sorry but you seem to have a REALLY screwed up idea of "nurses" and how they are supposed to act, the type of work they should do and most importantly, how they should feel!
Where do you come up with this nurses "love of another person, the compassion..." bit? How long have you been a nurse!?! I can't tell you how many nurses are so not compassionate!
The beauty of being in the nursing profession is that it is possible to wear many different hats, and advancing as an NP is one of a great many choices!
The more you try to justify your comments, the less they make any sense.
this is odd. i saw a post defining nurses as compassionate creatures. these same compassionate creatures have ripped plato to shreds just for posting an opinion!
since all of you hold so much contempt for plato, why do you waste your time cutting and pasting his posts, picking apart every response he types? what an ugly feeding frenzy!
be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. plato
Im so confused as how someone who loves and cares for others finds himself so above others. I think there is some type of issue that we dont all know about and honestly i dont want to know about, this whole thread has me sick at the hostility of one nurses feelings againt anothers. Whether you are a beside nurse or not, compassion doesnt come with a degree.Its in you or not. And to think you are christlike? come on now...
All this talk of professionalism and being respected by doctors makes me sick.
I am a professional. I am a nurse. My job is to diagnose and treat human responses to illness (care for the sick). I also educate patients, assess their physical condition, and rehabilitate them. Society considers an RN a professional position, so I am a professional. I am not a doctor, I don't work for a doctor; I am not a doctor's assistant. I work for my hospital and my nurse manager.
A doctor is an academically prepared individual who diagnoses and treats medical problems in human beings. We use doctors in caring for patients who have medical problems. We need their medical orders (orders for the patient--not orders to us as in "ordering" us to do something), because we can't legally administer medical interventions without them, why? because we are nurses not doctors!
I'm in the profession of caring for people, especially sick people, and in my case especially sick people with cardiac conditions. So, naturally I have problems with the nurse practioner being considered an "advance practice nurse." In reality they are a doctor's assistant. Our professionalism does not come by being more like a doctor but by being more of a nurse.
I respect doctors, but then I respect patients as well, and I respect strangers on the street. Doctors are not nurses, and I feel they are missing out on the greatest spiritual vocation available. If they think they are above me, professionally, then they are as misguided as the nurse who thinks he's not a professional if he can't write a prescription for amoxacillin.
OK, I'm done:)
umm............has somebody been eating paint chips again?
this is odd. i saw a post defining nurses as compassionate creatures. these same compassionate creatures have ripped plato to shreds just for posting an opinion!
since all of you hold so much contempt for plato, why do you waste your time cutting and pasting his posts, picking apart every response he types? what an ugly feeding frenzy!
be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. plato
i like that a lot.
have you read his posts? seriously, there is some really bizarre stuff in there.
I say that doctors, their PAs and NPs will always fail, because their task is to dx and tx diseases that lead to human suffering and death. They will always fail at this task. But the compassion of the nurse--the love of one person for another--will never fail, even if the patient should ultimately cross over.
An NP doesn't just choose to further their education; they change roles in the medical paradigm, and still have the audacity to call themselves nurses. I believe this stems from a form of "professional guilt." After all, a CNS is just as educated but can remain on the "nurse" side of the paradigm. Or a DNSc, even though their focus is education and research remain on the nursing side of the fence.
I'm sure NPs want to be considered super-nurses, but all I see them doing in the large hospital where I work is the daily rounds for the doctor. In the sticks, 3 miles from here, an NP may function independently--as a nurse? No. As a physician. NPs don't provide nursing care; that's the bottom line.
Even though I am accused of it, over and over, I am not saying NPs are worthless. I'm saying they are not nurses. NPs are important to physicians. They're important to nurses, too if they can write some orders that will help, but they aren't nurses unless they stop practicing as an NP and go back to doing those things that RNs do. This is my opinion. I don't know what everyone is so upset about--my opinion is not shared by the nursing profession. So, it really shouldn't matter that much.
I see your point that NP's are not nurses and you are offended that they should call themselves that.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to that. We are not going to convince you otherwise. Those of us who are entitled to another opinion have stated that as well. Personally, although NP's have changed roles to more md-like, I'm not offended they call themselves "nurses". That's just me.
I understand the point that love and compassion are forever, even if the outcome is death.
But to say nurses have the market on love and compassion is wrong in my opinion. To me it's obvious there are MD's, NP's, PT's, RT's, housekeepers, Chaplins, that have as much love and compassion. That the nurses are more so, and that their love and compassion is best is arrogant. (That's not a personal flame, as I don't know you, but the feeling that nurses are "compassionater than thou" is an arrogant thought.)
I have noticed many of you are calling Plato "him." I am wagering, and I am NOT a betting woman, that our Plato is a female.
It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round, and while I can't agree with Plato on most points, whatever floats her boat.
If what makes her feel important and noble is her belief that the be all and end all is compassion only found in a nurse, then that's Plato's issue.
I do take issue with the comments about NP's...I think there is a place for them, and a growing place at that, in the future of health care.
Plato, I think you should thank your lucky stars that the state of nursing and the opportunities for nurses to grow and expand in their chosen profession has grown since the days of Flo Nightingale. If ya wanna get down to brass tacks, the bedside nurse was not necessarily the "original" to begin with. I just am thankful that my only choice in nursing is not the battlefield nurse.
That said, Plato, your battle is not really with US here anyway. If you are so dead set against an NP being called or calling themselves a nurse, take it to someone who can do something about it. But know, when you do, you aren't the only one with passionate opinions.
MishlB
406 Posts
Umm, let me just say that NOT ALL NURSES are the compassionate beings you propose. What is your problem? You don't like that someone chooses to advance their career however they see fit? And doctor's will fail in the end? You need to see a doctor, a head doctor.