Nurse: 'I was fired for refusing flu shot'

Nurses COVID

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I have no clue who Godwin is. My name is Elisabeth. I am married to my husband Steven, which if you went to my profile and the link to one of my Squidoo sites you would see that. I have seven children ranging in age from 18 years to 16 months. I have worked almost exclusively pediatric care in Arizona and now do rural health care in Idaho.

My mother is Polish and we spent a great deal of my childhood overseas visiting family in Poland and visiting neighboring areas. My mother loves to travel and I was blessed to be able to go with her.

I apologize. I should cite my obscure references.

""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all online discussions--regardless of topic or scope--inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Rural, L&D, Postpartum.
I apologize. I should cite my obscure references.

""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all online discussions--regardless of topic or scope--inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, as someone who on my mother's side of the family is Polish gypsy and Jewish, as someone who did lose family members there, and as someone who has physically been there..... I have legitimate reason for concern. But, if you go back and read, MOST of my references were to the Iron Curtain which is Communism, not Nazism. I certainly hope that you recognize the difference. I was never in those countries during Nazi rule... I am only 38. But I WAS there during Communist rule.

If this is just a battle of the one liners and pithy comments (which is what it seems to be to some of the posters) then I would go with "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

The concept that employers can do anything they want at any time for any reason and if you want to keep your job you'd better just go along with it is very disturbing to me. It breeds a mentality that a long view of history shows, time and again, leads to problems. Why do employers mandate this? Because it is the "acceptable" view as put forward by those in the federal government, mainly the CDC. Any dissenting views result in those holding them being marginalized and dismissed... often for reasons having nothing to do with the science itself.

We see this in many areas of life... and as a nurse and a mother I run into the vaccination issue on more than one front. The same type of coercion that results in an valuable employee losing her job also results in doctors informing parents that if they don't agree to follow THEIR (aka the CDCs) vaccination schedule to the letter they will report them for medical neglect and child endangerment. Let us just ignore the fact that certain vaccines carry more risks than benefits in certain populations (a child in the U.S. is more at risk of problems from the rotavirus vaccine, for instance... which has had three different versions pulled off the market... than they are from the rotavirus itself!)

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Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

advice from peds experts: children's hospital of philadelphia (chop):

welcome to the vaccine education center

vaccines changed medicine

vaccines have literally transformed the landscape of medicine over the course of the 20th century. before vaccines, parents in the united states could expect that every year:

  • polio would paralyze 10,000 children.
  • rubella (german measles) would cause birth defects and mental retardation in as many as 20,000 newborns.
  • measles would infect about 4 million children, killing 3,000.
  • diphtheria would be one of the most common causes of death in school-aged children.
  • a bacterium called haemophilus influenzae type b (hib) would cause meningitis in 15,000 children, leaving many with permanent brain damage.
  • pertussis (whooping cough) would kill thousands of infants.

vaccines have reduced and, in some cases, eliminated many diseases that killed or severely disabled people just a few generations before. for most americans today, vaccines are a routine part of healthcare.

however, the disappearance of many childhood diseases has led some parents to question whether vaccines are still necessary. further, a growing number of parents are concerned that vaccines may actually be the cause of diseases such as autism, hyperactivity, developmental delay, attention deficit disorder, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, and sudden infant death syndrome (sids) among others. these concerns have caused some parents to delay vaccines or withhold them altogether from their children.

for more specific information on these concerns, visit the vaccine safety - hot topics and vaccine safety faqs sections of our site.

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vaccines all adults need

info on pa employers requiring flu vaccinations:

chop mandated vaccination in 2009:

mandating influenza vaccine: one hospital’s experience

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hi; my name is paul offit, and i'm talking to you today from the division of infectious diseases at the children's hospital of philadelphia. what i'd like to talk about is our experience last year with influenza vaccine, because we took an unusual step. we actually mandated the vaccine, not only for healthcare workers, but for all employees, and the deal was that if you didn't want to get the vaccine, you had 2 weeks of unpaid leave to think about it. if you still didn't want to get the vaccine, then you were asked to step down from your position.

of the more than 9000 employees in our hospital, only a few chose to lose their jobs over this request. we did it for the obvious reasons. certain facts about influenza are clear. every year, some children with influenza virus come into our hospital, and every year some children come into our hospital who don't have influenza, but who catch it from either a healthcare provider or other employee in our hospital. hospitals that have higher rates of immunization have lower rates of nosocomial infection, and we wanted to be 1 of those hospitals.

healthcare workers here encouraged to get flu shots - lancaster

release date: 9/27/2010

...elsewhere, main line health system, the children's hospital of philadelphia and the university of pennsylvania health system are requiring employees to get the shot or face being fired, according to the immunization action coalition and news reports. generally, the only exemptions are for those with medical or religious reasons.

outside of pennsylvania, johns hopkins health system in maryland requires workers to get the vaccine or wear a mask. new york presbyterian hospital requires the shot, or asks for a "voluntary resignation."

there has been some pushback from health care workers on the issue.

last year, new york health workers sued when the state ordered them to get flu shots during the swine flu pandemic, according to news reports. the state withdrew the requirement when it appeared sufficient vaccines may not have been available.

a new york state senator has said he will reintroduce a flu shot bill, which would be the first of its kind in the nation...

can health-care workers be forced to get flu shots? - time

by alice park[color=#999999]monday, oct. 19, 2009

...employers, notes alabama labor-and-employment attorney jennifer swain of the firm baker donelson, can set conditions of employment. so does that mean any company could impose an h1n1-vaccine requirement as part of its business-continuity plan? most likely yes, but swain is betting that few non-health-care companies would be willing to endure the inevitable protests against such a policy. "in health care, it strengthens an employer's argument that an employee might cause a direct threat by not being vaccinated," she says.

many states already require that people working in hospitals be immunized against measles, mumps and rubella, for example, and an influenza-vaccine mandate shouldn't be seen as any different from these standards. ...

read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1929232,00.html#ixzz1awxxejb3

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with 16000 HCW in the UK out of work sick right now with H1N1 I think all HCW should get the vax. Mandatory.

You guys go down... and we all follow.

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Specializes in Hospice.
Well, as someone who on my mother's side of the family is Polish gypsy and Jewish, as someone who did lose family members there, and as someone who has physically been there..... I have legitimate reason for concern. But, if you go back and read, MOST of my references were to the Iron Curtain which is Communism, not Nazism. I certainly hope that you recognize the difference. I was never in those countries during Nazi rule... I am only 38. But I WAS there during Communist rule.

If this is just a battle of the one liners and pithy comments (which is what it seems to be to some of the posters) then I would go with "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

See post #62, above.

Your presentation of your credentials over and over does not show that you have the slightest clue about epidemiology. I get that you hate communism. I get that you hate nazism. But what do you know about infectious disease, epidemiology and comparative risk?

I happen to agree with parts of your analysis of the politics of labor/management relations ... but I'm not entirely convinced that it proves your point.

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First of all, you complain about people using "one liners and pithy comments (though I don't quite understand the problem with pithy comments as, by definition, a pithy comment is meaningful) yet you feel like throwing out cliches and other qualifications that don't necessarily make you anything close to an expert on the flu, just that you dislike being forced (which I contend no one is doing in the situation we are discussing) to put something into your body against your will. You are entitled to like or dislike whatever you please, but no matter how strong your feelings, they do not present a logical argument.

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See post #62, above.

Your presentation of your credentials over and over does not show that you have the slightest clue about epidemiology. I get that you hate communism. I get that you hate nazism. But what do you know about infectious disease, epidemiology and comparative risk?

I happen to agree with parts of your analysis of the politics of labor/management relations ... but I'm not entirely convinced that it proves your point.

Presentation of family credentials have even less to do with showing expertise in epidemiology! I've yet to see any profession of personal credentials....they've all been family.

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The fact is that no one is addressing the actual point:

There is a non-invasive way to accomplish the same goal. But hey, if throwing out one-liners because you can't argue that legitimate point makes you feel good, go for it.

The point is about vaccination, not cold war Poland or your father's profession. The one-liners have as much to do with the point as your family history...nothing....but they're at least amusing.

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I still dont see how a vaccine created from last years strain of flu virus can be effective toward the now mutated virus we are seeing this year. Even if it was effective, think about it. How many different strains of flu are there and how many are you being vaccinated against? None of it is logical. You have a better chance of getting in a car accident then being seriously put down by the flu.

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I still dont see how a vaccine created from last years strain of flu virus can be effective toward the now mutated virus we are seeing this year. Even if it was effective, think about it. How many different strains of flu are there and how many are you being vaccinated against? None of it is logical. You have a better chance of getting in a car accident then being seriously put down by the flu.

First of all, flu shots are not based off the previous years flu strains, but rather the three strains that research indicates will be most prevalent during the upcoming flu season. You can find this out with less than a minutes worth of research.

As far as chances of being "seriously put down by the flu," this is true for most healthy adults. However, there are a couple things not being taken into account. One is that most healthy adults do not come in near as much contact with the flu virus as health care providers. Also, what is a minor annoyance to a healthy person can be life threatening to someone with serious health conditions.

What is not logical is basing an argument on assumptions founded in what you believe to be the case rather than actual facts.

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Hospitals that are making injections of any kind mandatory, should be required to inform potential employees of that mandate in the 1st interview. Please don't waste my time, I am not interested in your Flu Shots, or the potential job if this is a requirement.

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Don't get the reason this is a debate at all. As HCPs we need things like:

  1. updated MMRs
  2. physicals
  3. TB tests with f/u if positive

There's more, but it's late and I'm tired.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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