Why is it MEN seem to get along better in this field than WOMEN??!!!

Torachan · May 14, 2004

Sorry about any offence.

Torachan · May 14, 2004

Upset to many people

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · May 14, 2004

Female nurses need to make choices that will enhance their professional images; those who engage in the backstabbing, gossiping and 'eating our young' do nothing to enhance that image.

Really everyone needs to make the choices that are best for them all around, and take the image into consideration. But like you said, those that engage in the crap aren't enhancing the image.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · May 14, 2004

It's a matter of personal responsibility to ourselves and the profession. IMHO

Stitchie · May 14, 2004

I recently read a research paper that addressed some of the reasons why women's salaries tend to be lower than men's. One of the primary reasons they came up with (which surprised me because it hadn't really occurred to me) was because women are far less assertive than men when it comes to negotiating and/or re-negotiating salary and benefit expectations with their employers. According to this research article (and I wish I could remember now where I read it), women are many, many times more likely to simply accept what is offered them, whereas a far greater percentage of men will demand (and receive) more. This same article also stated that women are reluctant to use many of their employer provided benefits, such as flexible spending accounts and childcare subsidies, because they fear it makes them appear needy and weak.
Pretty interesting, huh?

I agree. Women need to learn to be assertive, ask directly, plainly for what they want, and speak up about conditions that you wouldn't treat a dog in, let alone patients. I think that it's part of the perceived stereotype that women should be 'good girls' and not 'rock the boat'.

One of the reasons that I hope more males get into nursing is raising wages. As previously stated. When women partake of the necessary behavior to negotiate wages, working conditions, childcare, they are labeled as 'difficult'. When they attempt to affect change on a unit, they are labeled as 'troublemakers'.

Employer's love the 'good girl' who doesn't take part in the benefits that are offered to them. In fact, they discourage wage negotiations with such statements as "This is what all new grads are paid" or "we have a wage ladder and there's no flexibility in it". I've heard both of these from the two hospitals I've worked in.

There may be other hospitals out there that aren't part of the salary caps that Illinois hospitals seem to participate in, however unwillingly. But when I interviewed last year, all the hospitals (about 5) were within $1.50 of each other, with shift / weekend differentials considered there was no difference in pay for off-shifts. I don't think that it's a conspiracy, but I don't believe in coincidences of this magnitude, either.

IMO hospitals appear to be more interested in saving a buck than promoting positive working conditions. As the overwhelming majority of nurses are women, hospitals not encouraging staff to partake in convienent childcare (ie, on premises, flexible hours, well staffed) are shooting themselves in the foot.

One nearby hospital I know of has decided to staff a nurse in a seperate sick kids daycare type setting because of staff calling off to take care sick children. Now you couldn't bribe your way into a job there, in any capacity. It was less expensive to convert a unused lounge/cafeteria and hire a PRN nurse than to cover those shifts with PRN or agency staff. Simple, convienent, forward thinking. It works.

If as a profession we can choose to replace the vindictive, vicious behavior we exhibit towards one another with a collective voice about horrible working conditions, this will truly awaken the 'sleeping giant' of the majority of healthcare workers. But of course the industry is reluctant to encourage this because of the potential cost to those businesses. They literally have us where they need/want us, and it's going to take an enormous crisis to facilitate any sort of real change in the inpatient setting.

Now, for those of you who might enjoy a consipiracy theory, here's mine: perhaps unit managers unintentionally, or intentionally, encourage nurses to choose the horrid behavior we demonstrate towards each other because it's divide and conquer time. Keep nurses focused on the bad we do to each other and they won't even see the horrible conditions we work under.

Perhaps men get along better in this field because they have not been raised with this idea of 'not rocking the boat'. Men are also less likely to be single parents (although not unheard of) and therefor concentrate on wages/benefits instead of the larger picture, which makes them a more efficient employee for the hospital. JMO.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · May 14, 2004

caroladybelle
I am glad that you took time out of your life to make a personal attack on me. I refuse to apologise if you did not find me funny. Believe it or not people are different and as such some do find me funny.
I won't be subscribing to a student premed BB as I am a student nurse. Thanks for the suggestion though.
I don't have a superiority complex, let alone a male superiority ego as you suggested. I don't think that I am better than anyone else due to my race, sex, nationality, university, football team, social status. I was recounting the whole episode to my mates and it had us all in stitches (see some people do find me funny). I am sure that LPN2Be2004 can be funny as well.
Anyway that is my opinion. Yours are probably more valid than mine because I am younger, a man, a student nurse, not an american, white, live below the poverty line, have less than 50 posts (go on, pick the one that makes me the easiest target. I gave you enough ammo)

Torchan,

I did not pose a "personal attack" on you. Merely set you straight. Regretfully you have difficulty with that. LPN most certain has a sense of humor...there was no reason for you to dismiss her like you did. It was rather rude.

I did find it interesting that you thought that you might be blocked...why did you feel the need to be accusatory to the BB in general when you could have questioned an administrator much easier and less publicly and received a proper answer?

Mine is merely an opinion, one of many, no better no worse than any other. But if you feel the need for further discussion, please feel free to PM me.

Carolina

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · May 14, 2004

I agree. Women need to learn to be assertive, ask directly, plainly for what they want, and speak up about conditions that you wouldn't treat a dog in, let alone patients. I think that it's part of the perceived stereotype that women should be 'good girls' and not 'rock the boat'.
One of the reasons that I hope more males get into nursing is raising wages. As previously stated. When women partake of the necessary behavior to negotiate wages, working conditions, childcare, they are labeled as 'difficult'. When they attempt to affect change on a unit, they are labeled as 'troublemakers'.
Employer's love the 'good girl' who doesn't take part in the benefits that are offered to them. In fact, they discourage wage negotiations with such statements as "This is what all new grads are paid" or "we have a wage ladder and there's no flexibility in it". I've heard both of these from the two hospitals I've worked in.
There may be other hospitals out there that aren't part of the salary caps that Illinois hospitals seem to participate in, however unwillingly. But when I interviewed last year, all the hospitals (about 5) were within $1.50 of each other, with shift / weekend differentials considered there was no difference in pay for off-shifts. I don't think that it's a conspiracy, but I don't believe in coincidences of this magnitude, either.
IMO hospitals appear to be more interested in saving a buck than promoting positive working conditions. As the overwhelming majority of nurses are women, hospitals not encouraging staff to partake in convienent childcare (ie, on premises, flexible hours, well staffed) are shooting themselves in the foot.
One nearby hospital I know of has decided to staff a nurse in a seperate sick kids daycare type setting because of staff calling off to take care sick children. Now you couldn't bribe your way into a job there, in any capacity. It was less expensive to convert a unused lounge/cafeteria and hire a PRN nurse than to cover those shifts with PRN or agency staff. Simple, convienent, forward thinking. It works.
If as a profession we can choose to replace the vindictive, vicious behavior we exhibit towards one another with a collective voice about horrible working conditions, this will truly awaken the 'sleeping giant' of the majority of healthcare workers. But of course the industry is reluctant to encourage this because of the potential cost to those businesses. They literally have us where they need/want us, and it's going to take an enormous crisis to facilitate any sort of real change in the inpatient setting.
Now, for those of you who might enjoy a consipiracy theory, here's mine: perhaps unit managers unintentionally, or intentionally, encourage nurses to choose the horrid behavior we demonstrate towards each other because it's divide and conquer time. Keep nurses focused on the bad we do to each other and they won't even see the horrible conditions we work under.
Perhaps men get along better in this field because they have not been raised with this idea of 'not rocking the boat'. Men are also less likely to be single parents (although not unheard of) and therefor concentrate on wages/benefits instead of the larger picture, which makes them a more efficient employee for the hospital. JMO.

Excellent post, and I totally agree!

BTW, I was recently offered a "promotion." I asked what the salary increase would be. I was told there would not be one. I was told that better hours and major holidays off constituted compensation for the promotion. I disagreed. I asked my NM for a specific dollar amount per hr increase for taking the job, and presented documentation on how it would actually benefit the company to give me what I was asking for. Guess what!

My boss agreed, and I got the exact amount I'd asked for. I should have asked for more, dang it!

I am very proud of myself for not just meekly accepting what was offered, as I have in the past.

Energizer Bunny · May 14, 2004

I recently read a research paper that addressed some of the reasons why women's salaries tend to be lower than men's. One of the primary reasons they came up with (which surprised me because it hadn't really occurred to me) was because women are far less assertive than men when it comes to negotiating and/or re-negotiating salary and benefit expectations with their employers. According to this research article (and I wish I could remember now where I read it), women are many, many times more likely to simply accept what is offered them, whereas a far greater percentage of men will demand (and receive) more. This same article also stated that women are reluctant to use many of their employer provided benefits, such as flexible spending accounts and childcare subsidies, because they fear it makes them appear needy and weak.
Pretty interesting, huh?

This is a veeeeeeeeery interesting post. I guess as a woman, I should learn to be a bit more agressive. The problem is that so many times, when stating my opinions emphatically, I am perceived as being a ***** because I stand up for myself, etc. This would be why I don't do it so much anymore and have learned to keep my mouth shut in most instances instead of sticking up for what I think is right. *sigh*

teeituptom, BSN, RN · May 14, 2004

Ive done very well for myself

bbear · May 14, 2004

I guess as a woman, I should learn to be a bit more agressive. The problem is that so many times, when stating my opinions emphatically, I am perceived as being a ***** because I stand up for myself, etc.

This brings up a very important point. There is a vast difference between being assertive and being aggressive. Being assertive is doing the exact types of things a previous poster mentioned--she stated her position regarding salary expectations, and she then provided research/documentation to support her position. Being aggressive would have been more along the lines of her telling administration that she knows what the position is worth, she knows what she is worth, and if the hospital was unwilling to pay her what she was worth in that position then they could just go find somebody else for the job. There is a difference between the 2, albeit a subtle difference, that may amount to little more than tone, inflection, and delivery. Yet these differences could mean the difference between being labeled a b****h or a jerk, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman.

For my own part, I have nearly always found that a carefully contemplated response proves more tactful and productive than an immediate retaliatory response. Even if I might end up saying the very same thing. Why? Because if my response is immediate and expressed when I am offended or angry, my frustration is likely to be evident in my tone or voice inflection. However, if I merely say, "I'll have to think about that and get back to you," it gives me an opportunity to calm down, think the problem through, and carefully plan my response. So even if I end up saying the same thing, my frustration has been tempered so my delivery will sound much more polished and logical.

There's nothing wrong with telling somebody that you need to think about something before you respond. That's not the mark of an idiot who doesn't know what to say, but rather an intelligent person who accepts accountability for their statements. Administrators and co-workers alike would much rather deal with the latter, IMHO.

Energizer Bunny · May 14, 2004

Good point re: assertive vs. aggressive!

Repat · May 14, 2004

Whyever not? I am from the UK and spent most of my school years with a female head of state and female Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) She did a damn good job. I'm finding far too much female misogyny in the USA.

Misogyny exists everywhere. Who laughed at those jokes about Dennis carrying a handbag?