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Nurse Charged With Homicide

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Nurse Charged With Homicide

  1. 1. Should Radonda Vaught, the nurse who gave a lethal dose of Vecuronium to patient at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, be charged with reckless homicide?

    • She should not have been charged
      358
    • She deserved to be charged
      104

462 members have participated

7 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

Well now I'm curious.

All patients in a hospital are strictly monitored if they've received or have been receiving singular small doses of any IV benzo? IOW, every patient who has received an IV anxiolytic is monitored with sedation protocols?

Is this monitoring formal or informal?

Would like to hear the common practices around the country. Please don't comment on conscious/moderate sedation but rather anxiolysis with a single small dose of IV benzo.

No. She was in a different department, in a scanner, separated from help. When someone is given versed or any other IV medication that can alter consciousness or physiologic response, they are in nursing care. Even when I worked in ED, and I'd give someone morphine---on goes the monitor, even some Os if they're older, obese or otherwise compromised. Monitoring is a given.

In radiology, the techs do talk to the patients. Most of the time, when someone is non responsive, (NOT UNRESPONSIVE), the assumption is made that the person is asleep (it happens quite often) and the tech hits "autoscan". If there is some kind of concern, such as a pt that has been injured in some way---response is required. If the patient is given even .5 of ativan....monitoring is required because of the length of the scans, the distance from the control room, and the fact that if the tech had to elicit a response from the patient each time, the scan would never get done. The sedation is usually given for agitation, or claustrophobia. The whole POINT is to keep the patient calm and hopefully asleep.

Ergo, monitoring.

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7 minutes ago, HomeBound said:

 

If an opinion is offered, evidence should be there to support it.

Why? Just because you say so?  ;)

In my opinion, Whitney's voice was prettier than Mariah's.  Where shall I go to find evidence for my opinion?

 

Edited by Horseshoe

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6 minutes ago, Horseshoe said:

Why? Just because you say so?  ;)

In my opinion, Whitney's voice was prettier than Mariah's.  Where shall I go to find evidence for my opinion?

 

Because she is using an assertion of FACT, not opinion.

Opinion:  I believe Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's.

Fact: (if stated this way)  Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's, because once, when I was a kid, Whitney's singing put me to sleep more quickly than Mariah's.

Not only is the factual statement not factual, the person stating is is convinced that it IS a fact, because she believes it. It happened to her.

Well, it didn't happen to me. I hate both of their voices, as a matter of fact and think neither has a "pretty" voice.

It's not a fact that this woman CANNOT BE CHARGED under TN law. MtnNurse is stating that the nurse cannot, and here is why---a bunch of unrelated stories that not only are completely different, but also call into play the idea that all crimes are created equal.

If it is MtnNurses opinion that Ms. Vaught should not be charged, then she should say that. Beating the same drum on it, with continuous unrelated stories, is not evidence, it's personal belief. As I said, I would be more than willing to be persuaded---with facts. Show me, under TN law, where she CANNOT be charged. And I counter with---a bunch of really smart legal guys say she can, and a grand jury agreed. Under the law.

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10 minutes ago, HomeBound said:

Because she is using an assertion of FACT, not opinion.

Opinion:  I believe Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's.

Fact: (if stated this way)  Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's, because once, when I was a kid, Whitney's singing put me to sleep more quickly than Mariah's.

Not only is the factual statement not factual, the person stating is is convinced that it IS a fact, because she believes it. It happened to her.

Well, it didn't happen to me. I hate both of their voices, as a matter of fact and think neither has a "pretty" voice.

It's not a fact that this woman CANNOT BE CHARGED under TN law. MtnNurse is stating that the nurse cannot, and here is why---a bunch of unrelated stories that not only are completely different, but also call into play the idea that all crimes are created equal.

If it is MtnNurses opinion that Ms. Vaught should not be charged, then she should say that. Beating the same drum on it, with continuous unrelated stories, is not evidence, it's personal belief. As I said, I would be more than willing to be persuaded---with facts. Show me, under TN law, where she CANNOT be charged. And I counter with---a bunch of really smart legal guys say she can, and a grand jury agreed. Under the law.

I was really just making a point that you should have said "if you are going to present a statement as a fact, you should present evidence." I agree with that.

But there is no need to provide evidence to support an opinion, which is what you actually said.

And I also agree that if you are presenting your opinion, you should state or otherwise make clear that it is an opinion, rather than stating an opinion as though you are stating a fact.

Edited by Horseshoe

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On 2/6/2019 at 5:43 PM, Sour Lemon said:

...and would it change anyone's mind about her if they "knew" more of her personality?

No m'am, just wondering if the nurse lurks here and reads all these comments made about her. 

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2 hours ago, HomeBound said:

Because she is using an assertion of FACT, not opinion.

Opinion:  I believe Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's.

Fact: (if stated this way)  Whitney's voice is prettier than Mariah's, because once, when I was a kid, Whitney's singing put me to sleep more quickly than Mariah's.

Not only is the factual statement not factual, the person stating is is convinced that it IS a fact, because she believes it. It happened to her.

Well, it didn't happen to me. I hate both of their voices, as a matter of fact and think neither has a "pretty" voice.

It's not a fact that this woman CANNOT BE CHARGED under TN law. MtnNurse is stating that the nurse cannot, and here is why---a bunch of unrelated stories that not only are completely different, but also call into play the idea that all crimes are created equal.

If it is MtnNurses opinion that Ms. Vaught should not be charged, then she should say that. Beating the same drum on it, with continuous unrelated stories, is not evidence, it's personal belief. As I said, I would be more than willing to be persuaded---with facts. Show me, under TN law, where she CANNOT be charged. And I counter with---a bunch of really smart legal guys say she can, and a grand jury agreed. Under the law.

mtnNurse appears to me to be intentionally employing the "distractor" technique, trying to obfuscate and circumvent the direction the conversation is going when he/she doesn't like what is being said.  

Edited by Susie2310

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2 hours ago, HomeBound said:

No. She was in a different department, in a scanner, separated from help. When someone is given versed or any other IV medication that can alter consciousness or physiologic response, they are in nursing care. Even when I worked in ED, and I'd give someone morphine---on goes the monitor, even some Os if they're older, obese or otherwise compromised. Monitoring is a given.

[....]

Thanks. Yeah, I understand the situation. My previous comment was a genuine question about common practice, but also my way of saying I would be in favor of the staffing protocols and set-up being such that every patient was actually expected to always receive appropriate surveillance/monitoring according to info in policies and drug references, etc. [For clarification, my comment is regarding what admin hopes nurses will choose to get by on. Resources are allocated with the full knowledge that people down the line will need to make plenty of choices that shouldn't have to be made.]

I routinely survey/watch/assess &/or officially monitor patients above what is called for in policies and what is observed in common practice, going by what I know or have reviewed prior to administration - basically because I'm willing to lose my job if they don't like the way I do things, or quit if I can't do it to my standards.

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Her actions although a mistake fit the very definition of reckless homicide according to Tennessee state law. Inadvertently administering the wrong medication would have been cause for discipline and possible discharge but the act of intentionally and RECKLESSLY overriding a safety feature designed to prevent this sort of error is what makes this a crime. There were multiple points which could have led to the recognition of the error had the nurse followed hospital policy and nursing guidelines but instead, she disregarded everything she had ever been taught or told and acted RECKLESSLY. I understand that the Patient's family remains forgiving but the fact of the matter is that her actions and recklessness caused the loss of life and this action has consequences. I think many nurses defend or feel sympathy for her out of fear of one day being in the same situation  

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As a nurse(long term for over 30 years) and if I see a new drug pop up, I am not at all familiar with  and I don't know what it does ..signals a red flag to me..I would want to know whats its for and to clarify it thoroughly before administering it....its negligence.

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I hope she will be interviewed some day so we can hear her side. 

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On 2/6/2019 at 3:42 PM, magellan said:

What kind of specialty area are you in when you give it to thousands of patient in your practice? Is your primary specialty is in the OR suite, Procedure, pre-op or ICU where the patient is hooked up in the monitor. I'm a registry nurse that works in the Medical Surgical, telemetry unit, ICU, burn unit, orthopedics, home health, psychiatry, LTAC, skilled nursing etc for 17 years but I haven't administered Versed in those areas of specialty. I did administer it however one time but it was in the surgery center with the doctor inside all the time and the patient was hooked up to the monitor with crash cart next to it. Versed have been used to kill a condemned prisoner in a death row with no medical condition.  Remember Michael Jackson with propofol, it's the same effect when given to patients without highly trained personnel and proper resuscitative equipment at bedside because usually it's being used as anesthetics. But sometimes, professionals used it to push the envelope thinking that it is really safe but it's not always the case. It's better to be safe than to be sorry later on.

I work in an ICU and we use versed all the time. We use it in gtt form, we can bolus from the bag, we have 2mg and 5mg vials in our pyxis and use it for procedural sedation. Sometimes my patients are intubated and sometimes they aren’t, but for bedside procedures like bronchs we tend to use a combination of fentanyl and versed. I don’t know the amount of times I’ve adminsitered it. I’ve administered it twice in the last week alone during a bedside procedure. 

Just because the ICU you work in (or have worked in) doesn’t use it, doesn’t mean that all ICUs never use it. 

ETA: the fact that you stated you are a registry nurse makes me think you aren’t a nurse in the USA (not a term I hear used here). This event happened in the USA and practices (which meds are preferred, etc.) can really vary by country (and region within a country too).

Edited by AceOfHearts<3

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50 minutes ago, Molemedic said:

Inadvertently administering the wrong medication would have been cause for discipline and possible discharge but the act of intentionally and RECKLESSLY overriding a safety feature designed to prevent this sort of error is what makes this a crime.

You are wrong about the recklessness of using override and I will state this like a broken record as many times as I have to. This has been explained very clearly numerous times now. Just because Vanderbilt can make a bunch of people who never take care of patients believe that override is some big thing doesn't make it true.

Its purpose is not to lock anyone out of anything. For those of you who don't know, the CMS report actually includes a pharmacist re-creation of how the vecuronium was accessed, and it amounts to "sign in, "tap here, type VE."

Some departments such as ED never needed override for the longest time because ALL medications in all of the cabinets could be picked from the general list.

That has been changing more recently and places profile meds for ED patients now (meaning the pharmacist approves/checks all orders before they appear on the regular accession screen for a particular patient). If you want something not on the profile (yet), you can override.

I stopped using override the very day that ED meds started being profiled because I saw the writing on the wall about it. The best thing to do if a med doesn't seem to be profiled yet is not to override but to call pharmacy and say I need it profiled now please. That way you keep your stats looking good.

But as a point for mere entertainment, guess what pharmacy has now that they're the ones under the constant rapid-fire pressure of having to check (aka "profile") all ED meds???

Auto-profiling!! 🙌🏽

 

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