Several of us who have gone back to school to become NPs have encountered a lot of animosity from some fellow nurses. We get remarks like, "You think you're better than us?" The other night at work, several of the nurses were complaining that they didn't think they should have to take orders from NPs because, "they're just nurses like me, they're not doctors." Recently one of our nurses had surgery and proclaimed that she didn't want, "some NURSE" (i.e. CRNA) doing her anesthesia, she demanded a doctor.
I was coming here to post this and ask if any of you had encountered that same type of attitude, but then I see yet another post demeaning the DNP and read some of the comments and see that it's no better.
I'm in a DNP program and I'm proud to be. I don't think that I'm any better than an MSN prepared NP. You may think that it's all fluff (and there is some of that, but from talking to my MSN friends, no more than in most MSN programs) but I'm proud of the education that I'm receiving and I have no doubt that I'll be a great nurse practitioner when I'm done. I think it's funny, I can't think of any other profession where obtaining more education is looked down on like it is in nursing.
For the record, I don't plan on calling myself "doctor" for fear of confusing patients. I don't feel that I'm any "better" than an MSN prepared NP or that an MSN is a "joke." I just think it's very telling that in our profession, any attempt to better yourself is looked down on. If you don't want to become an APN, don't. We need good nurses at the bedside. If you have an MSN and don't want to get a DNP, don't. But can we all please stop slamming people who do make that choice?
I want to do research and to teach as well as practice clinically, I realize that I can do that with an MSN, but I felt like the DNP would better prepare me for that. If you don't feel that way, that's your right. If you don't want to teach or be involved in research, that's fine too.
Until we can all respect the choices each of us makes and the contributions we can all make, our profession is never going to advance.
Ahh...that feels better. I'll get of my soapbox now. Bring on the flames...
I respect your choice. That doesn't mean, however, that I want a nurse providing my care. I have a serious illness and will most likely need surgery. With all I have going on, I want a physician providing my care. The same goes for when I am sick.It doesn't have to do with bitterness or envy. I just want physicians to be directing and providing my care. It doesn't mean I don't respect NPs.
Same here. Nothing personal; however, I want a physician directing my care and I want a physician providing my anaesthesia.
I also have an NP as my PCP. But, I am one to make all choices. I will, research and pick my own surgeon, etc. Nothing wrong with that. So, my problem is the low class insult made by the nurse re her surgical team - was she that much a doormat that she had to feel a need to kiss up to any MD around by demeaning herself? THAT is embarrassing. Little does a person like that know that she has not "made points", she has made herself look like an absolute idiot in the eyes of her surgeon too.
Too bad that the majority of posts have resorted to knee jerk "jealousy" comments.
I see the discussion from both sides.
I have had wonderful care provided by a competent NP in a wellness clinic, or primary care setting. I had my annuals performed by her, she dealt with my minor ailments as wonderfully as any MD. I would definitely use an NP for primary care in the future if the opportunity arose again.
However, If I (or my family) were to be hospitalized with serious illness, going for major surgery, in the ICU, I would prefer to defer my care to an MD.
Flame away.
Until the standards or education for APN are set (such as not allowing people into the program with no clinical experience having never worked as a nurse, online programs, programs with very minimal clinical hours and very few years to complete a program) I feel that MDs and even 2nd, 3rd year residents are more competent to care for me in this setting. This is my survival instinct kicking in..in a life or death situation, I want the most qualified person at my side.
I don't think this makes me "jealous". I have no desire to further my education.
However, how are APN suppose to overcome this hurdle of support from their fellow nurses, the public and doctors, if people won't take time to explore this sentiment, and simply "shut it down" by assuming we are all ignorant? How does this help the image of the APN profession when there is an attitude of mocking people who would rather choose a different practioner?
your article points to a very sad yet important reality. Nurses are known for eating their young and for not supporting each other. A perfect example is Amanda Trujillo story. But before we point fingers at each other, it is important to understand where this culture of nursing comes from and take steps individually and as a profession to address these issues. Nursing has all the tell tale signs of the culture of the oppressed. The oppressed do not like their fellow clan members to get ahead and they do not support each other especially if they have the slightest bit advantage over others. When we recognize this as individual nurses and as a profession, half the battle is already won. The next step is to be aware of our own attitude, make needed changes within ourself as we initiate and support change and begin helping each other.
Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.
I have seen some pretty bad physicians doing anesthesia. Of course I've seen some pretty bad CRNAs providing anesthesia.
Initials don't mean much. I discovered this soon after school. I told the story in another thread about the pediatrician who came in active labor. We had an all CRNA group providing the OB anesthesia at that hospital. She insisted on an MDA. Her OB doc got an MDA to come to do her epidural. He wet tapped her twice, epidural never did work. She develop a post dural puncture headache from the two wet taps.
Then she wanted a CRNA to blood patch her. We of course would not touch her.
Sometimes you get what you ask for.
Same here. Nothing personal; however, I want a physician directing my care and I want a physician providing my anaesthesia.
Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.
You would also not have a Family Practice physician doing your surgery or dealing with your serious illness, would you? You would rather have a specialist? You would rather have a surgeon do your surgery.
So, what is the difference?
I refer to specialists all the time. No different from the family practice physician. This is what we are discussing. Not NPs doing surgery or major illness in ICU alone.
What a great topic for discourse and discussion.
Too bad that the majority of posts have resorted to knee jerk "jealousy" comments.
I see the discussion from both sides.
I have had wonderful care provided by a competent NP in a wellness clinic, or primary care setting. I had my annuals performed by her, she dealt with my minor ailments as wonderfully as any MD. I would definitely use an NP for primary care in the future if the opportunity arose again.
However, If I (or my family) were to be hospitalized with serious illness, going for major surgery, in the ICU, I would prefer to defer my care to an MD.
Flame away.
Until the standards or education for APN are set (such as not allowing people into the program with no clinical experience having never worked as a nurse, online programs, programs with very minimal clinical hours and very few years to complete a program) I feel that MDs and even 2nd, 3rd year residents are more competent to care for me in this setting. This is my survival instinct kicking in..in a life or death situation, I want the most qualified person at my side.
I don't think this makes me "jealous". I have no desire to further my education.
However, how are APN suppose to overcome this hurdle of support from their fellow nurses, the public and doctors, if people won't take time to explore this sentiment, and simply "shut it down" by assuming we are all ignorant? How does this help the image of the APN profession when there is an attitude of mocking people who would rather choose a different practioner?
I've worked with several APN's in my 10 years in the Perioperative setting. They were all good people and good at their jobs and I would never disparage any of them. I do wish that we could clarify the differences between the various APN roles, specifically CNS, NP, and CNL. No one questions what a CRNA does, do they? But tell me what does a Perioperative CNS or NP do? This clarity would also help those of us who are interested in becoming APN's identify the best way to achieve our goals and market ourselves.
The one thing that does irritate me is when APN's behave and state that they aren't nurses. It's in your frickin' titles!
As for this "doctor nurse," thing, there have been doctorally prepared nurses for a long time. Personally, I don't even call my GP physician, "doctor." I call him, Mike, because that's his name, we're all human, and anyone who handles my junk annually is automatically on a first name basis
I'm grateful that I work with a supportive bunch. One of my colleagues will ask how school is going every single night I work. Even the physicians I work with have been very supportive. They provide encouragement on a routine basis and their support has meant so much to me.
Now about the DNP. I, along with most, would never denigrate anyone who chooses to advance their education. I have decided that the DNP, in its current format, does not meet my career goals. My best friend is in a DNP program and we encourage and support each other and our chosen educational paths. I, however, have a problem with the current format of the dnp programs that I've investigated (several, too many to name). I do not support the mandating of the DNP for entry to practice. I have a problem with a practice doctorate focusing predominantly on research, policy, leadership etc. without requiring additional physiology, pharmacology, etc. I think that some of the DNP arguments on this board have been misconstrued. Just because someone does not agree with the DNP being required as entry to practice or expresses concerns regarding the format or content of DNP programs does not mean that they are against nurses obtaining a DNP.
Sometimes, it is better to keep one's career and educational goals to one's self when in an hostile environment, lol. You don't owe anybody an explanation for your educational choices. Just continue to treat everyone with respect and kindness and let them think whatever they want.
"until the standards or education for apn are set (such as not allowing people into the program with no clinical experience having never worked as a nurse, online programs, "
this statement seem contradictory to your preference for mds as there is no requirement for working as an rn or any other clinical or health care experience necessary for med school. you do go on to say that there is also an issue with NP schools that don't require a lot of clinical hours which could be a problem, but for accreditation purposes the number of clinical hours for all schools is pretty standard and pretty high. i also wonder what you are basing your disdain of online programs on. is there some research somewhere showing that the outcomes aren't as good with online programs? i am not an np, but i work in nursing education and standards are important to me. also, reality is important and if there isn't research to support claims then the claims are just prejudices. i will tell you that the research supports online education and all education at the university level is moving towards more of an online format. people are very excited about it.
Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.
very well said.
quoting laughingrn"until the standards or education for apn are set (such as not allowing people into the program with no clinical experience having never worked as a nurse, online programs, "this statement seem contradictory to your preference for mds as there is no requirement for working as an rn or any other clinical or health care experience necessary for med school. you do go on to say that there is also an issue with np schools that don't require a lot of clinical hours which could be a problem, but for accreditation purposes the number of clinical hours for all schools is pretty standard and pretty high. i also wonder what you are basing your disdain of online programs on. is there some research somewhere showing that the outcomes aren't as good with online programs? i am not an np, but i work in nursing education and standards are important to me. also, reality is important and if there isn't research to support claims then the claims are just prejudices. i will tell you that the research supports online education and all education at the university level is moving towards more of an online format. people are very excited about it.
Speaking of evidence, there was also a study that found RN experience was not related to NP skills (self-evaluated, and more interestingly, physician-evaluated as well!)
Speaking of evidence, there was also a study that found RN experience was not related to NP skills (self-evaluated, and more interestingly, physician-evaluated as well!)
Kinda goes against all common sense and logic doesn't it? If, as a RN, you learn how to use a stethoscope, then there's one single example out of many skills learned as an RN that apply to NP skills.
GilaRRT
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