NA's not professionals

[Jabramac]

I was the recipient of a complaint yesterday from another employee. An NA told me she had been called off before her shift and told on the phone that instead of having her work, the floor would run with "3 professionals." She took offence at the notion that she was being referred to as not being "professional." While I understand the callers true meaning was RN's and had nothing to do with "professionalism" it non-the-less offended the NA.

I then wrote an e-mail to all the people who may be calling staff off and informed them that this might be offensive and we should monitor ourselves with what we say and to whom. I got a response back from a manager stating that this is an industry term and the NA needs to be "talked to." She also asked me to provide the name of the NA.

Personally I know it that the meaning of "professionals" was not meant to be offensive and only referred to RN's. But, perhaps it's more offensive then I think? I would like to hear from some NA's if they would find it offenses that RN's are referred to as "professionals" and NA's are not.

Tonight I have to decide how to respond to the mangers e-mail with out turning it into a huge issue, but still respecting the NA.

[Athenas83]

Earle, I was not trying to sound arrogant. I just stated fact. I don't think I'm better than anyone...period. No matter how much education I get, that will never change. I am a Christian and have God's view on things, that everyone is equal. Education and knowledge are tangible things, and aren't what are valuable to me. Someone's heart condition and how they treat others are what matter.

[flightnurse2b, LPN]

i think that's arrogant and presumptuous.

yeah, i could do their job.

but dang, it would take me forever.

i could never do it as proficiently as they do.

it is the nsg assts, who have taught me so many tricks of their trade.

clever, resourceful, time-saving techniques.

and i agree with tiredmd.

we, as nurses, become contemptuous when we feel belittled by md's.

and yet, some on this board, have no problem inflating their own self-worth by downplaying the role of the cna.

truly, i am sitting here, shaking my head.

sure, one can call themself a professional.

but according to what i've been reading, there's nothing professional about some of these attitudes.

to this day, i am still unsure as to whether nursing is a vocation or profession.

truthfully, i don't care...

as long as i can hold my head up and act "professionally".

and that would encompass being supportive, respectful and conducting oneself with grace.

i guess it really does boil down to how one perceives professionalism.

sheesh.

leslie

i couldnt have said anything better, leslie. thank you.

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

but again, angie, how does one define a profession?

varying definitions make it most ambiguous.

if diploma/adn nurses can become professionals by virtue of a 2 yr degree, does that make the bsn nurse more professional?

what distinguishes a profession from a vocation?

i honestly don't know the answer to this.

and so, i cannot passionately claim, to be a professional (noun).

but i can be defined by my professionalism (adjective).

so, when i read about cna's wanting to be treated like professionals, i don't get the impression they're equating that with academic status:

rather, a group of workers who want to be recognized for their valuable contributions, just like everyone else.

and it's these same sort of misconceptions that md's have of us:

that we nurses are relegated to performing a bunch of tasks...

and they, the doctors, are the ones who truly have the important work of saving lives.

you don't see the connection between md-nurse, and nurse-cna??

leslie

If we go back to the original post, the CNA in question was "offended" when she was told that she didn't have to work and that "professionals" would staff the CNA positions.

Her feelings were hurt because she interpreted "professional" as opposed to the CNA (or "not-professional," if you will) to mean that she was "UN-professional."

Certainly, that would hurt anyone's feelings.

However, and I cannot stress this more, this CNA overreacted and misunderstood the term "professional" to reflect on her work habits, not on her job definition.

RNs are recognized as professionals. Period. It is the definition of the Registered Nurse.

You can personally argue that an RN is a not professional, but in my state, according to Florida's BON Nurse Practice Act, you would be incorrect:

(4) "Registered nurse" means any person licensed in this state to practice professional nursing.

(5) "Licensed practical nurse" means any person licensed in this state to practice practical nursing.

(6) "Advanced registered nurse practitioner" means any person licensed in this state to practice professional nursing and certified in advanced or specialized nursing practice.

...

(3) "Certified nursing assistant" means a person who meets the qualifications specified in this part and who is certified by the board as a certified nursing assistant.

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

P.S. I've worked on units that did not use CNAs and I've been a CNA myself, so please don't think I'm "elitist" or "putting the CNAs down." I've worked with and trained many excellent CNAs. But as a CNA, I was no slouch either, Les.

Would I prefer to work with a CNA? Well, it depends on two things -- the unit and the CNA.

[ERRNTraveler, RN]

For people to say that I as an RN can't do a CNA's job is absolutely ridiculous! Um... I used to be a CNA before I was an RN, so, I KNOW that I can do a CNA's job, because I have before. That is not to say that having CNA's or techs around doesn't make my job easier- it frees me up to take care of the "RN" stuff, but can I function without a CNA? Of course. Could I do the job of a CNA? You bet- I have before. Could a CNA do the job of an RN? Absolutely not.....

[smk1, LPN]

I know you think that, that's my point. Most docs think they could do the job of an RN without any particular difficulty. Whether it's factually true or not is irrelavent. This whole notion of "I can do your job and mine, no problem" is nothing more than a weapon used to denigrate your coworkers.

I get it, your job is hard. Great, mine too, that's not the point I'm trying to make. All I'm saying is this: It's sad to see nurses, who have a long history of getting crapped on by physicians, then turn around and use the exact same specious arguments to put down CNAs. I guess it really does roll down hill, eh?

A physician has a COMPLETELY different job than a nurse. The tasks are almost completely different. A CNA is doing some of the tasks of a nurse. Therein lies the difference. A nursing assistant is there to assist the nurse. So logically, it stands to reason that a nurse can and does do the job of a CNA already. A nurse and a doctor are two completely different animals, so a comparison just doesn't fly. Not many here (I don't recall seeing any actually) are crapping on the CNA's. I myself stated more than once that there was no need to offend the CNA's by excluding them from the ranks of those who can be called a professional. Life is too short inmho to spend time on that. However, when comments are made that put down the knowledge and education that nurses have on a nursing board, people might get a bit testy. The truth is the truth. A nurse has already learned the job and performed in the capacity of a CNA, but the reverse is not true so why try to argue about something you really don't know much about?

[TiredMD]

However, when comments are made that put down the knowledge and education that nurses have on a nursing board, people might get a bit testy. The truth is the truth. A nurse has already learned the job and performed in the capacity of a CNA, but the reverse is not true so why try to argue about something you really don't know much about?

I never put down the "knowledge and education that nurses have". I have the utmost respect for nursing, although like any other Resident, I do have my professional disagreements with my coworkers from time to time. In this thread, I have attempted to maintain a professional tone while disagreeing with other posters, and I challenge you to cite one instance where I have put down your future profession on this board.

And in case you've forgotten my posts, I worked as a CNA for seven years, and still maintain my certification. Even if this weren't the case, I think I might have picked up a little bit about what nurses do, seeing as how I spend more time on the wards than I do at home. Or perhaps I might've learned about it from my wife, who has been an RN for the last decade, whom I met while working as a CNA.

I'm suprised that, as a student, you would presume to lecture anyone about what they do and do not know about a field you have yet to work in.

The real moral of this story is to be sensitive about the words that you use. "Professionals", at least in the four different states I have worked in, is not a shorthand way of saying "registered nurse". It is not suprising that this terminology was misunderstood. I likely would have made the same error in interpretation. Even benign words can become hurtful when used in a thoughtless context.

[time4meRN]

I think the NA needs to get over it. In my opinion , RN's do meet most of the criteria for proff. We have are controlled by BON's, we may get reimbursed if we choose to, we have a code of conduct that we are held to, we are upper middle class, (my salary is 37.50/4.75 hr shift /1.50 charge pay/ plus weekend diff) Not bad I would say. ....so on and so on with the long definition /comparison. NA's are trained many times in a matter of months. They have no Board for regulation. Now as far as the MA's go, that is another thread all together. Don't get us started on that again. Holey, moley. RN's are RN's . I'm sick to death of other medical feild members trying to compair themselves to us . If they want to be an RN and have the wounderful title then ,,,,,,,GO TO SCHOOL !I don't call myself Dr. because I catch their mistakes, make critical decisions etc. Can you imagine if we started saying things like, well, I might as well be called a Dr. I do the same things. All He** would break loose. So , as much as I respect and love many of my NA's, CNA's MA's , any other A's you can think of, I'm sick of political correctness... If they want to have all the wounderful glory of an RN,(ha,ha) sign their name as leagally responsible,be the one the DR looks for when they want to yell, etc... etc... then go to school.

[Jabramac]

I am still trying to figure out why the OP decided to speak to the manager about this. While I applaud her sticking by the CNA, this was one of those issues where the CNA should have been instructed to speak with the manager if she had a problem. By the OP butting in, the CNA could now be in trouble because the CNA is openly complaining to someone else. The manager doesn't care about the CNA's dislike of the use of the "professional" term, the manager is unhappy that the CNA is complaining to others. This CNA could be in trouble if the manager chooses to start "watching" her and then terminate her for causing low morale and decreasing unit cohesion with her complaints. I know the OP meant well, but this was the wrong battle to try to fight and now both the CNA and poster could be in trouble.

So - OP if you are still out there - you are going to have to decide what to do next. IMO you need to nicely tell the manager that you are going to keep the CNA's name to yourself. You tried to stick up for the CNA and it backfired - you can best show professionalism now by watching her back and keep everything else to yourself. Don't even have this discussion with your coworkers.

Actually I am a supervisor and it would have been either another supervisor or a staffing office person that made the call. I could have ignored this, and probably should have, but I was trying to stick up for the CNA. The CNA did tell me that she wanted this message passed on. I did decide to with hold her name. I replied that I was only suggesting we be sensitive with the terms we use when we tell staff they wont be working or making any money that day. I know if I needed to work and was called off I might be a little upset to begin with. I also told her I would leave it to the employee to discuss this with her manager if she wants more follow up. I am confident that she is safe from repercussions.

Ok "talking to" someone because they were offended!! What does she hope to accomplish? (putting her in her place?) We are talking about tender feelings a tender ego. "talking to" her is not going to make her anymore receptive.

Management need to take the high road. Use another term. RN is an industry term. Use it. For that matter RN is a more accurate term. Professional could mean a lot of things. The business world love to obscure things with its language. Plain simple straight forward language is the best. Say exactly what you mean rather than the latest popular "industry" jargon.

If it is not easily understood by everyone (not just everyone in the industry) it is jargon and does not even belong in the professional's vocab. (in this case it is not understood by everyone in the industry)

I think this is one of the most constructive feed backs on this thread. From the responses I see that CNA's may feel offended, so maybe we should us a different term altogether. It wouldn't be the first time a term was changed to decrease negative connotations.

The real moral of this story is to be sensitive about the words that you use. "Professionals", at least in the four different states I have worked in, is not a shorthand way of saying "registered nurse". It is not suprising that this terminology was misunderstood. I likely would have made the same error in interpretation. Even benign words can become hurtful when used in a thoughtless context.

Thank you! I really didn't intend for this thread to be a huge debate, but I did get an answer to my question-- CNA's may be offened at the suggestion they are not profesionals. I think rather then arguing who is and who isn't, I'll take this knowledge and use it to do my best to not offend anyone.

[Virgo_RN, BSN, RN]

I don't think of Nursing Assistant as a profession. It is an occupation. But, I do appreciate CNAs who conduct themselves in a professional manner.

[AprilRNhere]

Wow this thread got long quickly.

I'm an RN. I don't think of myself as a professional- I think of myself as a registered nurse. I don't want to be a professional lol. I get to go to work in tennis shoes, and cotton scrubs. I take care of people. My job includes alot of critical thinking...and knowlege yes..but it also includes but wiping, vommit, and numerous other dirty jobs. And...I get paid well for it. I don't think you really CAN compare nursing to much else...it's in it's own little box.

That said....I think the CNA was too sensitive....the caller insensitive....and everyone arguring over it silly. The caller wasn't wrong...but could have chosen better words. The CNA isn't wrong for her feelings...but needs to understand common terminology used in her facility.

[Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN]

I know you think that, that's my point. Most docs think they could do the job of an RN without any particular difficulty. Whether it's factually true or not is irrelavent. This whole notion of "I can do your job and mine, no problem" is nothing more than a weapon used to denigrate your coworkers.

I get it, your job is hard. Great, mine too, that's not the point I'm trying to make. All I'm saying is this: It's sad to see nurses, who have a long history of getting crapped on by physicians, then turn around and use the exact same specious arguments to put down CNAs. I guess it really does roll down hill, eh?

No one here is putting down CNAs. We are simply arguing that CNAs are not considered professionals in the noun sense of the word. Period.

I was a CNA myself for three years. Nurses never put me down or treated me badly. Most of them were so busy running around like chickens that I didn't have much interaction with them. The ones I did get to speak to for more that two minutes always thanked me for my help.

As a CNA, the only co-workers who treated me badly were other CNAs.

I never had a single interaction w/ an MD.

Since becoming a nurse, I get crap from every direction- but I get crapped on by CNAs and techs most of all.

Yes, many nurses have done the CNA job as well as our own. I have worked on all nurse units- no CNAs there. Do you think that no one got toileted, bathed, or had their food cut up for them because there were no CNAs?

Excellent CNAs and techs are worth their weight in gold. When I am fortunate enough to work with such colleages, I make damn sure that they know I appreciate them. I bring them food, and small gifts. I praise and thank them constantly. I have written letters of praise re: certain CNAs and given the letters to admin.

Unfortunately, however, this type of CNA is hard to find.

I am a traveler and work with many different CNAs/techs in many facilites. Some of the time, I end up with the kind I find asleep in pt rooms, talking on their cellphones on the floor, and have even found one asleep in her car recently. Sometimes, I have trouble finding them at all.

Some are insubordinate, refusing to do what they are asked to do. Some are inappropriate giving medical advice to pts. More often than not, what they are telling pts is not only out of their scope, but inaccurate, as well.

Crap can somehow find a way to defy gravity and roll uphill, as well.

I recently had the good fortune to work w/ an MD who was a CNA, an RN and then an MD. He told me that in his personal opinion, being an RN was the most difficult of the three.