MD's treat male nurses with more respect?

Bluebolt · Dec 14, 2015

Because being "assertive" as a woman is often either seen as being "aggressive" or "bytchy". But in men, it's expected and valued. Fortunately, I don't concern myself with such opinions and assert myself as needed. I got over worrying such opinions a while ago....and am raising my own daughter to be strong and have convictions in hers.

I would agree with SmilingBluEyes perspective.

Of course working in CV-ICU I have come across some female and male nurses that go overboard with a god complex and shove their weight around, even bullying some of the physicians. There is a delicate balance between being assertive professionally and being a "B word", males or females. I personally know female nurses who are intelligent, well spoken, knowledgable clinically and their opinion and voice is heard among the treatment team. They aren't considered butch or "a B word" but effective communicators and professional.

I don't think that women have to behave masculine in the sense another poster stated in order to be heard and effective in the workplace without using tactics of flirting and servitude.

ANnot4me · Dec 14, 2015

This is a complex issue but I think it comes down to the fact that people will only treat you disrespectfully if you allow it to happen. Men and women are socialised differently and I have had to deal with more than one female nurse who was reduced to tears by their frustration over a work conflict with a co-worker, doctor or a patient. As a man, I have cried at work because of the sadness incurred because of a patient's situation (that was not received well and I was viewed as weak), but I have never cried because of a conflict with a colleague. In those situations, I get angry, think logically and fight back.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 14, 2015

I'm a male nurse, the only one on day shift on the unit I work with. I enjoy a good working rapport with the docs. Mostly they come to the floor, do their thing and leave. The one that enjoys the best rapport with them, the one they have comrade with are the ones that seek that out, the secretary in particular always greets and talks to them. I'm friendly, but not that outgoing, so I think it depends on the personality of the nurse.

Our docs tend not to yell, but do express themselves when we make a mistake and as the charge nurse I'm often the recipient of that, and I don't notice they tone it down for me as a male.

We're entering a period where female docs are as numerous as males, so it's going to be interesting the perception. In our residency program women outnumber men. Some men are just more comfortable being friendly and relating the other males. Also, we live in an age of sexual harassment and men have to watch themselves.

emmy27 · Dec 14, 2015

Has it occurred to you that part of the frustration your female colleagues experience over conflict that may reduce them to tears is their awareness that "fighting back" often backfires for women, as expressions of assertiveness or anger from women, regardless of legitimacy, are often classified as being either "b***hy" or "too emotional?" This is a catch-22 that women are often placed in in professional settings, where being self-deprecating or less assertive is often perceived as being "too weak" or "not standing up for themselves" but being assertive or confident is often perceived as being "bossy" or "b***hy." This includes behavior that would be accepted from men- studies using the same dialogue have found both passive and assertive language are received more positively by many people when they believe it's coming from a man. Basically, however a woman chooses to say something, there's a solid chance it will be perceived negatively simply because on some level we aren't totally comfortable as a society with female leadership yet- so if she tries to lead or self-advocate in a "feminine" communication style, it's "weak" and if she tries to lead in a traditionally masculine communication style, it's "bossy." It's really narrow tightrope to walk and it does indeed get frustrating at times.

On some level, for many of us subconscious, our culture teaches us both that stereotypically masculine qualities like assertiveness are superior to "feminine" ones like cooperation, and that violation of gender roles is a bad thing. This leads to a penalty for women in a setting where "masculine" behavior is prized, regardless of whether they display "masculine" or "feminine" traits- either way, they're "doing it wrong."

This has gotten better over time and I hope/believe it will continue to do so, but it's delusional to think we're at perfect gender parity in the workplace, that thousands of years of strictly defined gender roles aren't still influencing our social interactions just because we've had access to more jobs for a few dozen years, or that your female colleagues who express frustration over their interactions with others just need to "get angry, think logically, and fight back."

Bluebolt · Dec 15, 2015

Has it occurred to you that part of the frustration your female colleagues experience over conflict that may reduce them to tears is their awareness that "fighting back" often backfires for women, as expressions of assertiveness or anger from women, regardless of legitimacy, are often classified as being either "b***hy" or "too emotional?" This is a catch-22 that women are often placed in in professional settings, where being self-deprecating or less assertive is often perceived as being "too weak" or "not standing up for themselves" but being assertive or confident is often perceived as being "bossy" or "b***hy." This includes behavior that would be accepted from men- studies using the same dialogue have found both passive and assertive language are received more positively by many people when they believe it's coming from a man. Basically, however a woman chooses to say something, there's a solid chance it will be perceived negatively simply because on some level we aren't totally comfortable as a society with female leadership yet- so if she tries to lead or self-advocate in a "feminine" communication style, it's "weak" and if she tries to lead in a traditionally masculine communication style, it's "bossy." It's really narrow tightrope to walk and it does indeed get frustrating at times.
On some level, for many of us subconscious, our culture teaches us both that stereotypically masculine qualities like assertiveness are superior to "feminine" ones like cooperation, and that violation of gender roles is a bad thing. This leads to a penalty for women in a setting where "masculine" behavior is prized, regardless of whether they display "masculine" or "feminine" traits- either way, they're "doing it wrong."
This has gotten better over time and I hope/believe it will continue to do so, but it's delusional to think we're at perfect gender parity in the workplace, that thousands of years of strictly defined gender roles aren't still influencing our social interactions just because we've had access to more jobs for a few dozen years, or that your female colleagues who express frustration over their interactions with others just need to "get angry, think logically, and fight back."

So your perspective is that physicians treat male nurses differently because they behave in traditional masculine work roles and discredit females because they don't?

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · Dec 26, 2015

If you are asking if sexism and male privilege are real, yes they are. They are also very ingrained. Most people (including women) don't notice the sexism within their own culture. it is easier to see sexism in other cultures. Very few people have any idea how differently they would be treated if they were the opposite sex. Some transgender people might.

ktwlpn, LPN · Dec 26, 2015

I actually have observed one of docs treat the a few of our male nurses almost as equals.Until he got to know them and their skills .....

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2015

In my area of the country most of the doctors I work with were born and raised in foreign cultures with very specific ideas about women. With that being said the answer for me is yes. I have had to take the hard line with them because it is all they understand. They respect me and do not yell/throw things at me but they also do not like me.

VANurse2010 · Jan 10, 2016

I would agree with SmilingBluEyes perspective.
Of course working in CV-ICU I have come across some female and male nurses that go overboard with a god complex and shove their weight around, even bullying some of the physicians. There is a delicate balance between being assertive professionally and being a "B word", males or females. I personally know female nurses who are intelligent, well spoken, knowledgable clinically and their opinion and voice is heard among the treatment team. They aren't considered butch or "a B word" but effective communicators and professional.
I don't think that women have to behave masculine in the sense another poster stated in order to be heard and effective in the workplace without using tactics of flirting and servitude.

This is why I do cardiac medicine ICU and not CVICU.