Mandatory Overtime

[ChknWing]

This question is for US nurses.

I am a nurse in a unionized hospital within a state that has made mandatory overtime for nurses illegal.

We are considering an out-of-state move, and I only recently learned that there are many other states that require their nurses to work more than the 36/40 hours per week which they are hired to work, with your job being at risk if you refuse to do so.

I have searched the boards for additional information and I still have so many questions about this. Is it a standard practice statewide? Is it hospital specific? Is this disclosed during the interview process? Is there any way to opt out? Are "mandatory overtime" facilities generally not great places to work, meaning would this be a red flag if it came up in a job search?

We would be moving for a better quality of life for our young family, but being mandated to work extra hours will impact our quality of life in a negative way. If anything, I am hoping to work less hours when we move vs more. 

Thank you in advance for any insight you can offer. 

[JBMmom, MSN, NP]

I'm in a union hospital and we have had forced mandations since I started four years ago, but most nurses had not been mandated until the past six months. These days it's pretty normal to be mandated on a regular basis for up to 16 hours. We have about 400 nurses, although that includes a few outpatient facilities, our hospital is just under 190 beds. Our union reported that in a recent two week period 86 nurses were mandated beyond their shift.

Sometimes you can get someone else to take a voluntary mandate for you, but according to the union, there is disciplinary action for refusing the mandate, including potential termination. I don't know of anyone being terminated and there have been rumors that people have refused the mandate, but I haven't spoken with anyone that has refused. We are supposed to get two hours notice, but given the late callouts it has been as late as 15 minutes before shift end. 

I will often take the mandate for a coworker since I work only eight hours now and I don't mind staying until 11am. I've had five of those in the past month. Fortunately I haven't had to stay for a full 16 hours in the past two months. But it has happened.

There is another hospital within our health system that doesn't have a union and they do not mandate staff. I guess they just work super short?

Good luck with your potential move!

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

Even in the states with laws against mandatory overtime, there's usually an "out" if it would directly adversely affect patient care. For example, I work in surgery. If there's not enough nurses to circulate the cases running at end of shift, well, whoever doesn't get relieved is stuck or it's patient abandonment. Now, we do have call people and if the needs are greater than what the next shift plus the call staff are, then first it's volunteers, then it's voluntold. However, they can't force the staff to stay and START another case, only finish the one they're in.

[ChknWing, BSN, RN]

41 minutes ago, JBMmom said:

I'm in a union hospital and we have had forced mandations since I started four years ago, but most nurses had not been mandated until the past six months. These days it's pretty normal to be mandated on a regular basis for up to 16 hours. We have about 400 nurses, although that includes a few outpatient facilities, our hospital is just under 190 beds. Our union reported that in a recent two week period 86 nurses were mandated beyond their shift.

Sometimes you can get someone else to take a voluntary mandate for you, but according to the union, there is disciplinary action for refusing the mandate, including potential termination. I don't know of anyone being terminated and there have been rumors that people have refused the mandate, but I haven't spoken with anyone that has refused. We are supposed to get two hours notice, but given the late callouts it has been as late as 15 minutes before shift end. 

I will often take the mandate for a coworker since I work only eight hours now and I don't mind staying until 11am. I've had five of those in the past month. Fortunately I haven't had to stay for a full 16 hours in the past two months. But it has happened.

There is another hospital within our health system that doesn't have a union and they do not mandate staff. I guess they just work super short?

Good luck with your potential move!

that sounds more reasonable than being told to sign up for a 4th shift each week. still not ideal but I would rather be mandated if I am already there. was this something you were aware may happen when you got the job? meaning, are places generally transparent about whether or not they mandate and how often it happens?

[ChknWing, BSN, RN]

4 minutes ago, Rose_Queen said:

Even in the states with laws against mandatory overtime, there's usually an "out" if it would directly adversely affect patient care. For example, I work in surgery. If there's not enough nurses to circulate the cases running at end of shift, well, whoever doesn't get relieved is stuck or it's patient abandonment. Now, we do have call people and if the needs are greater than what the next shift plus the call staff are, then first it's volunteers, then it's voluntold. However, they can't force the staff to stay and START another case, only finish the one they're in.

yes. and the situation you are describing makes sense because you can't just walk out if there's nobody else coming in. I had a different idea on my head, where mgmt would sign you up for extra shifts each week and you couldn't say no. so I'm wondering if I'm overthinking this mandatory overtime thing, and if it's just something I will have to include in my questions for potential employers. I would hate to uproot my family and then be miserable at work and regret everything. but I'm also an anxious over thinker. so I'm trying to get a feel if this is a legitimate thing I need to worry about.

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

2 minutes ago, ChknWing said:

so I'm wondering if I'm overthinking this mandatory overtime thing

It sounds like you might be. The only times I have seen mandatory OT are when there isn't relief for the nurse and they either stay until someone comes in or patients are discharged (or in my scenario, when the surgery is completed)

[ChknWing, BSN, RN]

Just now, Rose_Queen said:

It sounds like you might be. The only times I have seen mandatory OT are when there isn't relief for the nurse and they either stay until someone comes in or patients are discharged (or in my scenario, when the surgery is completed)

That is reassuring to hear, and is the type of thing I was looking for in posting here.

I was casually searching jobs at UNC Chapel Hill in North Carolina, and before you could even submit an application you had to agree to an employer statement which basically said that you understand your employer can change your hours, shift, and mandate you at will. And that freaked me out!

[dream'n, BSN, RN]

In many places you have no choice.  If your relief nurse doesn't come in, you have to stay. Otherwise, it's considered abandonment.

When I first became a nurse, I worked dayshift in a LTC facility. My regular evening shift relief was notorious to call out. Staffing didn't care and I wouldn't even be told until the nurse didn't show up. I worked so much overtime until I came to my senses and left.

[toomuchbaloney]

15 hours ago, dream'n said:

In many places you have no choice.  If your relief nurse doesn't come in, you have to stay. Otherwise, it's considered abandonment.

If there is a nursing supervisor or registered nurse in a position of authority on duty at the end of your shift then they are the professional that has superior accountability. Your employer cannot mandate that you endanger your children because they can't meet their staffing needs.  

[ChknWing, BSN, RN]

2 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

If there is a nursing supervisor or registered nurse in a position of authority on duty at the end of your shift then they are the professional that has superior accountability. Your employer cannot mandate that you endanger your children because they can't meet their staffing needs.  

yes I definitely feel like the legality of what exactly is considered "patient abandonment" is not understood. and I've read people say that employers will use that as a threat when you decline overtime etc when that is not correct or accurate (nevermind also being inappropriate).

[JKL33]

22 hours ago, ChknWing said:

I was casually searching jobs at UNC Chapel Hill in North Carolina, and before you could even submit an application you had to agree to an employer statement which basically said that you understand your employer can change your hours, shift, and mandate you at will.

Then I would take that for exactly what it says.

You aren't really forced to stay even if mandated; that is to say you wouldn't be guilty of abandonment so long as you are able to properly hand your patients off to another RN. However, in a state/employer with at-will employment you might not retain your employment under the circumstances.

 

35 minutes ago, ChknWing said:

yes I definitely feel like the legality of what exactly is considered "patient abandonment" is not understood.

Well, there's patient abandonment and then there are non-abandonment actions for which you might be disciplined and/or terminated.

In my first job we would be mandated occasionally for an additional 4 hours at the end of a 12 hr shift.

My most recent workplace they had their crisis/surge staffing plan which was basically that, when enacted, staff RNs must sign up for a certain number of extra shifts in the coming 4, 6, 8, 12 weeks, etc. I don't know how they handled people who did not sign up for extra.

[chare]

23 hours ago, ChknWing said:

[...]

I was casually searching jobs at UNC Chapel Hill in North Carolina, and before you could even submit an application you had to agree to an employer statement which basically said that you understand your employer can change your hours, shift, and mandate you at will. And that freaked me out!

It reads:

Quote

[...]

I understand that if I am hired, the needs of Employer may require changes in the work environment and assigned schedules, including but not limited to overtime, weekend work, and rotating shifts. In the event of employment, I agree to adhere to such changes and abide by all present and subsequently issued policies and procedures of Employer.

[...]

I suspect if you read the fine print on most job applications, to include union facilities, you would find similar wording.

[dream'n, BSN, RN]

On 11/28/2021 at 8:54 AM, toomuchbaloney said:

If there is a nursing supervisor or registered nurse in a position of authority on duty at the end of your shift then they are the professional that has superior accountability. Your employer cannot mandate that you endanger your children because they can't meet their staffing needs.  

Actually they can..or at least in my experience (which was long ago granted) could. I needed to give report on MY patients and if my DON/ADON were leaving or left there wasn't a darn thing I could do about it. The only time the ADON took report from me was because I'd already worked 16 hours and they couldn't mandate me by law for another eight hours.  If the DON/ADON refused report or snuck out the front door before I could give it to them, what was I supposed to do other than stay?