Lpn & asn are are being phased out.

geek, BSN · May 16, 2016

I was replying to Nursegirl525.

I'm sorry I thought you WERE her arguing with me again and didn't read it closely. I appreciate your validation. I tried to delete my post but couldn't figure out how. I did change it though if you refresh

mushyrn, BSN, RN · May 16, 2016

I do find a little irony when complaining that one can become an ADN RN in "only" 16 months, when they are churning out new BSNs in only 12.
That said I don't know of any 16 month ADN programs.

I was talking about the LVN/PN programs. These people are still called "Nurses" and it becomes confusing and overall detrimental to the name, I feel. I'm not saying that I am better than these people because of my Bachelors degree, I'm saying that our appearance to other professions and patients is influenced by these things.

But yes, the "accelerated" BSN programs generally require a previous Bachelors degree with all of the involved University schooling. And I also agree that some RN to BSN programs are ridiculously simple rigor-wise and need to be reevaluated. The same can be felt towards these degree mill-NP schools. Why do we let our profession be treated this way??

And as far as less educational requirements allowing us to relate to our patients? That is probably more due to the fact that RNs are the faces patients see most at their most vulnerable. Of course they will come to trust us.

We've just come so far in our profession and it would be a shame to not continue further to increase our image, autonomy and ability within the healthcare system. We are NOT a doctor's assistant and we are NOT "wannabe" doctors or in training to become a doctor. This is also an unfortunate image many patients/people have of us.

No, we are our own, hopefully University educated in the future, nursing professionals with our own career/education independence. A University level education is required for all other professions that we as a society respect. Respect being the key word - nurses are trusted, but if we want the same level of respect as our peers we have to do more.

RNperdiem, RN · May 16, 2016

Interesting thread. Lessons learned: the job market around us is always changing and can change quickly. Getting real information is a challenge, and the current trend for degree inflation is here to stay(at least for now).

Alisonisayoshi, LVN · May 16, 2016

I was talking about the LVN/PN programs. These people are still called "Nurses" and it becomes confusing and overall detrimental to the name, I feel. I'm not saying that I am better than these people because of my Bachelors degree, I'm saying that our appearance to other professions and patients is influenced by these things.
But yes, the "accelerated" BSN programs generally require a previous Bachelors degree with all of the involved University schooling. And I also agree that some RN to BSN programs are ridiculously simple rigor-wise and need to be reevaluated. The same can be felt towards these degree mill-NP schools. Why do we let our profession be treated this way??
And as far as less educational requirements allowing us to relate to our patients? That is probably more due to the fact that RNs are the faces patients see most at their most vulnerable. Of course they will come to trust us.
We've just come so far in our profession and it would be a shame to not continue further to increase our image, autonomy and ability within the healthcare system. We are NOT a doctor's assistant and we are NOT "wannabe" doctors or in training to become a doctor. This is also an unfortunate image many patients/people have of us.
No, we are our own, hopefully University educated in the future, nursing professionals with our own career/education independence. A University level education is required for all other professions that we as a society respect. Respect being the key word - nurses are trusted, but if we want the same level of respect as our peers we have to do more.

Please don't demean my title by putting "quotes" around it. Please. I actually am still very much a nurse. You don't view yourself as better but feel the need to put quotes around my title, as if you somehow believe that I'm not actually a nurse?

Also, in my previous career my Bachelors didn't garner me additional professional respect, my knowledge level did. I became a sought after employee, frequently head hunted (I still get emails) because I was really good at what I did, and my professional reputation preceded me. I hate that "BSN equals respect for our profession" idea. No, acting like professionals equals respect for our profession.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · May 16, 2016

First off, I have my BSN but I completely disagree with the OP. This "phasing out" is very geographically dependent. In the big cities, sure hospitals can pick and choose what credentials they want, they have a large population of trained individuals to choose from. But, in the more rural isolated areas (like my hometown in Eastern Kentucky) where they are desperate for bedside nurses, i can assure you they don't care what degree you have, they just want a license! As others have stated on this thread, if LPNs or ADNs go away healthcare is in big trouble (especially at SNFs and LTACs!).

Do you mean LTCs? I worked for a Select LTACH which employed 3 LPNs; at the time they had 4 yrs to complete their RN, or they would be let go. One of them was >60 and decided he'd retire. The place I worked at was very acute--higher acuity than my current hospital's stepdown units.

exhaled · May 16, 2016

I'm not a Canadian nursing student, so I can't speak to that program. However, my sister in law (was) a Canadian nursing professor and she could not understand how we could manage an RN course in two years...until she took a look at my prereqs. She said "Oh, these are taken in our first two years of nursing school". With the way my prereqs were spaced it will have taken me five years to complete my two year degree. I will be completing my BSN immediately after graduating because I do believe BSN are held up as a (false) higher standard despite being administered the same licensing exam.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · May 16, 2016

Maybe, but it certainly goes directly against my person experience and that of my RN friends who went on to get BSNs.
I found the BSN (RN to BSN) to be absurdly easy, not informative, and the level of discourse to be embarrassing low.
Mine was a waste of time. Lucky for me it was free and I was able to do most of the work on paid time. I'm worse off for having it. While I was earning my BSN I had to miss out on other educational opportunities that would have been beneficial to my practice and my patients.
I disagree. I think what makes nursing special is our ability to relate to patients and this ability comes from our diversity.
The associates degree nursing programs are how most men, minorities and second career people enter nursing.
In my opinion the WORST thing that could happen to nursing would be if we became like medicine or pharmacy, that is kids from relatively affluent back grounds who go from high school, to college to professional program to practice.

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No bashing of BSNs here, but I will agree that my program was a behemoth (and expensive) waste of time. Nursing informatics was purely time I will never get back. Family nursing, I maybe took away a couple of useful nuggets (although I'm sure I will ever do a family assessment and care plan to the extent that we had to do for that class.) Public health class was ok. Geriatric nursing class, I did actually enjoy...but then, it was taught by a brilliant GNP who gave us practical info for working with geriatric pts. Nursing theory...........uff da. It was worse than "time I'll never get back." I had to premedicate for the headache that I got every class. But hey, I learned all about Caring Fields, chakras, auras, feng shui for the hospital room (of course we're pretty limited in where exactly the bed, vent, and med cart can go. Can't really take qi into account, even if I cared to.) I even got to see a demo of the instructor's divining rods, and heard how she used them o find the best area in her yard to put her labyrinth. :rolleyes:

I've been sitting on the "increasing coplexity" needing "more education" comment from pg 1... here's the thing about that. My BSN program taught me zero about the complexity of pts needs. Everything I learned about patho, pharm, critical care..heck even med surg nursing was taught in my ADN program.

I also spent 2 years pursuing a music degree before going to nursing school. I took classes in calculus, ear training, music theory, history, religion, medieval literature, Latin, German, chemistry...plus performed in countless concerts and recitals. I was very well rounded *before* getting a BSN. Plus how many scads of RNs are 2nd degree holders?

Again, not bashing BSNs--I have mine now. I still fail to see the argument how the degree makes one a better RN.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · May 16, 2016

They are in the northeast you cannot get a hospital job without a bsn in or around Philly. My friend even sat down with one of the hospital execs and explained our class was adn with bs in things like psych biology etc. guy didn't give a flying f that they were screwing our new grads out

Not true-work IN Philly and I work with BSN, ADN, and Diploma grad nurses in my ED; we were all new hires.

Do BSNs get the priority? Absolutely and have been the past 15 years.

There is a "tiered" system in hiring new grads in the area; the prestigious hospitals and hospitals with schools are considered first or from other prestigious schools; second the ones with good reputations due to established employees from said alumni programs, and/or clinical experiences with programs, THEN ADN and diploma programs from CC and Diploma schools...a lot of people left out in the cold are the ones from commercial schools and obscure small schools that TPTB have never hear of.

The ADNs that are enrolled in a BSN program will take precedence faster than one who just has their ADN and is starting out.

geek, BSN · May 16, 2016

Not true-work IN Philly and I work with BSN, ADN, and Diploma grad nurses in my ED; we were all new hires.
Do BSNs get the priority? Absolutely and have been the past 15 years.
There is a "tiered" system in hiring new grads in the area; the prestigious hospitals and hospitals with schools are considered first or from other prestigious schools; second the ones with good reputations due to established employees from said alumni programs, and/or clinical experiences with programs, THEN ADN and diploma programs from CC and Diploma schools...a lot of people left out in the cold are the ones from commercial schools and obscure small schools that TPTB have never hear of.
The ADNs that are enrolled in a BSN program will take precedence faster than one who just has their ADN and is starting out.

Well this was back in 09 when no one was hiring new grads.our problem now is we are no longer new grads . Can you share what hospital system that is? Thanks! My cc has a great reputation for grad nurses passing the nclex

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · May 16, 2016

Well this was back in 09 when no one was hiring new grads.our problem now is we are no longer new grads . Can you share what hospital system that is? Thanks! My cc has a great reputation for grad nurses passing the nclex

I graduated in 2012, and they still had a cap in hiring new RNs, again, there is a "tier" system in play in the area.

PM directly...I also know the smaller community hospitals and some outside of the city hospitals that hire ADNs. :yes:

geek, BSN · May 16, 2016

I would love to know what hospitals in or around Philly accept ADNs for their graduate nurse program. This is Main Line Health for example:

Nurse Residency Program FAQs:

Main Line Health, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

2) What are the requirements to be eligible to apply?

Graduation from an accredited BSN (Bachelors of Science in Nursing) program or currently enrolled in a BSN program and graduating within the next few months after applying
Valid and active Nursing License for the State of Pennsylvania (all Nurse Residents are required to pass their boards prior to starting)
Minimum 2.8 GPA

(2.8? so I had a 3.7 or 3.8 in undergrad and ADN but not good enough...)

MunoRN, RN · May 16, 2016

My feelings about the BSN as entry haven nothing to do with someone who is already a nurse and working. I am talking about the FUTURE. Where do we want our profession to go?
If we want to legitimately be considered as a "profession", we CANNOT continue to degrade further nursing education and courses. We cannot degrade those wanting a higher education level. A bachelors degree is the MINIMUM, repeat, MINIMUM entry to practice in any other profession that is respected and in high esteem. This is the present and the future.
Again, I AM talking about the first time college students who are entering the nursing profession. It should be a BSN entry only going forward. It shouldn't be some trade job that requires 15 months of training. We may as well be plumbers (not that anything is wrong with plumbers, but we should aspire for more). I don't see why people are so against this.

An ADN isn't 15 months or a vocational degree, thus the term "LVN" (V=vocational). Things were different 20 or so years ago, but currently ADN programs, either through competitive necessity or state mandate, use a curriculum that is comparable to BSN curriculum, and both include about a year of pre-reqs and 2 years of program. What ADN's lack compared to BSN's is about a year's worth of general electives (art history, etc), and it's doubtful this translates into measurable differences in patient outcomes.

The ADN program in my area has used previous bachelor's degrees as an admission criteria, and has had so many applicants with previous degrees that now it's a requirement for application. In my BSN program not a single student had a previous degree, so if more education should always be the requirement then why are we allowing BSN's with no previous degrees to practice on a level equal to multi-degree ADN grads.

I think there's broad agreement that what quality education for nurses, and this is the main reason why BSN-as-entry to practice hasn't become the established standard, it would degrade the quality of nursing education. We know one of the most important determinants of quality nursing education is clinical availability, moving our nursing student capacity to BSN programs would only move us backwards in terms of quality of educational experience. What makes more sense is to spread out clinical demands to broader areas that can better support those demands, and move BSN curriculum to those programs, which is what is already happening, so what else should change?