Low Down on Nursing Education

Nurses General Nursing

Published

In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.

1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.

2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.

3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.

4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.

5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.

6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.

7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Deb, I'll probably be kicking and screaming and whining the entire way. Mind you I'm only at the end of my first course "Concepts in Profressional Nusring" and it was at sometimes mind numbingly boring. But it really got me thinking more about the profression and I think it's lifting me out of a rut of burnout that I've had for the last couple of years. I can't describe it very well.

But not all, of the courses are going to be applicable to my day to day activities as a med-surg nurse. I'm in chemistry and concepts now. Next semester is Statistics and Research. How this is going to help me juggle 8 patients, I'll never know. :rotfl:

But as I have said, 20 years from now do I still want to be running up and down these hallways with an 8 patient assignment in med-surg? Maybe, maybe not, at least I might have some options with the BSN out of the way.

I hope I'm not sounding defensive, because I feel no need to be defensive. Just babbling. :)

neither defensive or babbling to me. you make perfect sense. I just wish I shared your enthusiasm. I LOVE going to school; can't GET ENOUGH of learning.But only when stimulated. And that program was a bunch of boring and very UNstimulating hoohah. I got tired of hearing how the "only professional nurses hold BSN or higher degrees, yada yada ad nauseum" as well......

But I would NEVER EVER put another down for pursuing a BSN. My hat is off to you!!! I will be among those congratulating you when you come here, announcing your graduation! TRUST ME!

nurses probably need at least a three year education, which they get in most ADN programs. I think they even benefit from a bachelor's now, after reading your post and many others. I just don't see any particular need for a BSN. I mean it could be any bachelor's degree that had a good foundation in liberal arts subjects. MDs don't need a pre-med degree for med school, and lawyers don't need a pre-law degree for law school, maybe a nurse should be the same way? Maybe they should have to have a bachelor's of some kind /c prerequs before they can even get into a 2 year nursing school. I might agree with that.

I'm interested to see more feedback specific to this comment (of course, I haven't read the rest of the posts yet). I have a Bachelor's degree, and it was useful to me for a little over 10 years. Now it is time for a career change, and I am pursuing my LPN first, then I plan to work as an LPN for a semester or so and pursue my ADN. Once I become an RN, I am thus far undecided about pursuing a BSN. I would have done the "Accelerated BSN" program had there been one nearby (I live in hickville).

Is my BA (not a BS, mind you) in Psychology and Elementary Education (two "easy" majors - double major, and Phi Beta Kappa, but I suppose that doesn't matter because what I was studying was an "easy" bunch of crap! :angryfire ) good enough, or should I pursue the BSN? I'm inclined to think I should pursue the BSN at some point in time simply because it will probably be required. Having a Bachelor's already may make it a little easier for me because I might (crossed fingers) be able to get credit for some classes.

:uhoh21:

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.

Is my BA (not a BS, mind you) in Psychology and Elementary Education (two "easy" majors - double major, and Phi Beta Kappa, but I suppose that doesn't matter because what I was studying was an "easy" bunch of crap! :angryfire ) good enough, or should I pursue the BSN? classes.

:uhoh21:

Hello BA to LPN,

Originally I was considering double majoring in Teaching in Spanish, and Nursing, then changed majors, (double again) to somehting else. All in all will end up with nursing pre-requisites and some nurse major courses complete while earnign a degree in another feild with a minor in Spanish and Psych.

Luckily I found a graduate entry program, (I live near Chicago and there are three universities which offer this.) They are highly competitive and intensive but,I am trying to go for it.

Is relocation an option for you?

Another reason why I like this is that while you are working on your RN graduate certificate, (this program is not for an accelerated BSN) you are eligable for graduate financing. Once you complete your graduate certificate and pass the NCLEX-RN you may begin the core MSN classes, (then a year later begin the clinicals-after having worked as RN for that time).

Oh, major thing I wanted to comment on is that I am against the elitist views that only science based degrees count. NO way. You have a double major in psych and education and you claim they don't count.

I disagree. You have been dealing with people, teaching and understanding them, this is somethign that will be highly useful as a nurse. :)

Gennaver

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
neither defensive or babbling to me. you make perfect sense. I just wish I shared your enthusiasm. I LOVE going to school; can't GET ENOUGH of learning!

I think I'm the same way. It's been about 8 years since my last college courses, which was college algerbra and a nutrition course, but if I had up the years I've been in college it's a significant amount of my adult life. I could probably have 3 bachelor's degrees if you add up the hours from the four colleges I've attended. :chuckle

Add to that the courses I've taken in ACLS, EKG (three of those), Progressive Care nursing, on and on and on. I guess if I really admit it, I love going to school and learning too. So I'm not sure if my enthusiam is for nursing or just that after a long dry spell I'm back in school. Hopefully a little of both. Hope I don't get burned out though.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

are you in traditional classes or taking online courses, or both, tweety? just curious.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Deb, I'll probably be kicking and screaming and whining the entire way. Mind you I'm only at the end of my first course "Concepts in Profressional Nusring" and it was at sometimes mind numbingly boring. But it really got me thinking more about the profression and I think it's lifting me out of a rut of burnout that I've had for the last couple of years. I can't describe it very well.

But not all, of the courses are going to be applicable to my day to day activities as a med-surg nurse. I'm in chemistry and concepts now. Next semester is Statistics and Research. How this is going to help me juggle 8 patients, I'll never know. :rotfl:

But as I have said, 20 years from now do I still want to be running up and down these hallways with an 8 patient assignment in med-surg? Maybe, maybe not, at least I might have some options with the BSN out of the way.

I hope I'm not sounding defensive, because I feel no need to be defensive. Just babbling. :)

You'll use statistics a lot. All sorts of nursing journals contain studies and you'll be better able to decide if you should bother making a new neuron for the info. and apply it to practice or if you'll take a wait and see attitude. Just because you want to be a bedside nurse doesn't mean that you're "wasting time" with non-clinical courses. The more education you get, the more exercise your brain gets.

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).

Wow. I was surprised when this thread popped up again, but it's interesting to revisit it. I'm ever so slowly getting closer to finishing my Associate Degree, and I have been giving a lot of thought to going on for my BSN. At this point, it isn't so much a matter of if, but when, (and to some extent where).

I've begun to feel that the major function of nursing school is to show you how much you don't know. Before I started, I was working in healthcare, had had friends and relatives in nursing, and really knew quite a bit, for not being a nurse. Not so much that I ever imagined I could just walk in and pass NCLEX, but I'd have bet I could have gotten around 50%.

HAH! I don't know anything!!! I'm good at tests, so I probably will pass NCLEX, now (wouldn't have gotten 10%, before school), but I am completely incompetent and will undoubtedly be a danger to patients and co-workers alike.

I am a total yutz and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a hospital in any capacity. How I haven't killed anyone on a transport is a mystery to me.

Eh, feels better to get that out.

But, seriously, folks... I still think the ADN or ASN is fine as an entry level degree. Maybe not ideal, but ADN programs produce some excellent nurses who might not be nurses if that option wasn't available.

I have been advised by some very good BSN nurses NOT to waste my time going on. I have to respect their views, but I don't think their advice necessarily applies to me. Certainly, I see some value just in having the degree, to avoid having be an issue in the future. Also, some of my more ambitious classmates have been taking a couple of the BSN courses while completing their ASN's, and they sound like classes I need to take. Even if I don't go on, a full semester on assessments sounds very useful.

If I had it to do over and had the resources, my route to nursing would be CNA-LPN-Diploma-BSN, and I think I might come out of that knowing how to be a nurse. From what I've seen, neither associates nor bachelors programs give you nearly enough hands-on. I'm sure they would love to, but there's so much to do and so little time, and they have to meet accreditation standards...

The reality appears to be what so many have said, you learn more nursing in the first year at work than in all your years of school, but that probably holds true in other fields.

Simulator time is not flight time.

Last semester, in Sociology, we discussed how we have become a credentialled society. With so much competition for good jobs, HR people tend to look for the ones with the most degrees. Doesn't mean they're getting the best employees, but if things don't work out, their butts are covered ("But, he/she had a college degree...") I've seen the trend even in building trades--where did you go to school?

To my thinking, Nursing is one profession that should buck the trend. We don't need uniform, predictable mediocrity.

We need the best people we can find, wherever we can find them, and a single mother of two with an ASN just might be more driven to excel than someone who always thought nursing might be fun, as well as a good way to meet doctors. (Not to say there aren't plenty of dedicated nurses who go straight from high school to a BSN--some people just know what they want to do at an early age, and do it.)

So, in short (well, that ship sailed several paragraphs ago), I think the diverse paths to nursing are a strength, I think we all have things to feed each other, and I still think we worry too much about being accepted as a profession. We are never going to get the same prestige as MD's among the general public. We can be respected within the health care community, if we earn it, and I think we have made some serious strides in that direction. We see a lot on these boards about doctors and others not respecting nurses, but where I work, that's an anomoly. Docs are usually civil, and the really sharp nurses are treated as colleagues, not helpers.

What we need to work on is being really sharp nurses, and school can only be the first step. Respecting and helping each other progress, in my opinion, would be an even more important step.

Before I started school, there were some nurses I worked with whom I wouldn't let watch my cats. There still are, but more and more I find myself seeing nurses I would have included in that category doing things I want to add to my practice. The less I know-it-all, the smarter some of them seem.

I think it's a shame that nursing doesn't value all the different levels of education and practitionners. Bedside nurses, whatever their degree are invaluable. That doesn't make them better than nurse educators or researchers. Their role is equally important. What people don't seem to realize is that each role is dependent on the other. Where would nursing be without those nurses with their "useless" masters and PhDs? I'll give you a hint: the same place it would be without nurses at the bedside.... NOWHERE I'd want to be. Maybe this is a bit of a rant, but I just don't get why there is so much one-upmanship in nursing, when we should be glad there are people who do the jobs that we don't want ourselves.

I so much agree with you. I also follow my agreement with this opinion / observation.

There is an academic snobbery that is projected by many BSRNs (.... I am not saying ALL), but many. It isn't nice or flattering to the ones who are so "taken" by their education that they look down their noses at LPNs, Associate Degree RNs, etc. Actually, it is a major determent to the perception of BSN by many of their coworkers and peers, let alone the student population and outside observers. The attitude reminds me of the newly rich, they just have to let everyone know how special they are.

Well, if you see yourself as being "special" because of education or financial abundance, then you're really not so special. Don't forget all of the MBA jokes. MBAs have made themselves the brunt of many jokes by their less than effective business practices and lack of achievement within the business world. Once highly respected, the MBA has become one of the least valued degrees, are a dime a dozen, and have little value in today's marketplace. There was a very "superior" attitude thrown around by a multitude of MBAs. They have been brought, abruptly, down from their high horses.

If you throw your weight around because you think you can, you carry no weight. If you must always be telling others how much better you are than they, you are not "better" in any way than another. Boasting about how much more you are worth as a professional, employee, or human being only alienates you, as a person, and makes you less in the eyes of others ... not more.

If you are truly more superior, you don't have to say you are, in order to be percieved as superior. Your superiority is demomstrated by your actions, deeds, and the way you treat others and the way you do your job. If others are impressed by your example, only then, do you elevate the respect you think is due you because of your percieved stature. Academic snobbery does not motivate others to value you or your level of education. Only your "good" example does this.

We all have individual personal and intellectual reasons which form personal opinion. Our backgrounds and life experiences are basis for those differences. Give others the opportunity to experience your "specialness", not your conceit or your hostility to ideas and ideals that differ from yours. Your education does not make you superior, in any way. Has anyone watched "The Apprentice" lately?

In the US we are all still free to voice our opinion, but that freedom also comes with responsibility. One of those is responsible communication. To disagree, it isn't necessary to be rude or hostile to state your differences. There are ways to communicate your difference of opinion without showing disrespect or being unkind. The OP has been BLASTED by many of you for his opinion. If one is soooo educated, I would think that part of that elevated education would have included a more diplomatic communicative skill set. As for myself, I only have a high school diploma and a couple of years of college, so please forgive me if my communication skill set is lacking.

It is only my personal opinion, for whatever it is worth. :)

1. It would be rare for someone to graduate high school only, then go through a diploma program, and be the critical thinker they need to be.

~~~~~

I really dislike buzzwords and generalizations. 'Critical thinking' is academias latest claim to a established process...IMO is not much more than the nursing process in action. Leave it to academic elitists to want to name and own a process that's been around forever. :uhoh3:

Some of my highest accolades as a NEW GRAD diploma RN came in this area, from educators, managers, instructors with HIGHER degrees than mine. I was encouraged (I was fortunate to find mentors who were NOT academic elitist) to go on into critical care and leadership roles as I posessed the personal qualities to succeed. And I did. And I managed to develop these well in a diploma program.. I also know quite a few nurses out there like me.

What a great, reasonable thinking post. Thank you for your information and great thoughts! It was very helpful to me and has given me some great re-affirmation about what I feel is my "common sense" approach to my nursing education. Thank you again! :p

Wow. I was surprised when this thread popped up again, but it's interesting to revisit it. I'm ever so slowly getting closer to finishing my Associate Degree, and I have been giving a lot of thought to going on for my BSN. At this point, it isn't so much a matter of if, but when, (and to some extent where).

I've begun to feel that the major function of nursing school is to show you how much you don't know. Before I started, I was working in healthcare, had had friends and relatives in nursing, and really knew quite a bit, for not being a nurse. Not so much that I ever imagined I could just walk in and pass NCLEX, but I'd have bet I could have gotten around 50%.

HAH! I don't know anything!!! I'm good at tests, so I probably will pass NCLEX, now (wouldn't have gotten 10%, before school), but I am completely incompetent and will undoubtedly be a danger to patients and co-workers alike.

I am a total yutz and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a hospital in any capacity. How I haven't killed anyone on a transport is a mystery to me.

Eh, feels better to get that out.

But, seriously, folks... I still think the ADN or ASN is fine as an entry level degree. Maybe not ideal, but ADN programs produce some excellent nurses who might not be nurses if that option wasn't available.

I have been advised by some very good BSN nurses NOT to waste my time going on. I have to respect their views, but I don't think their advice necessarily applies to me. Certainly, I see some value just in having the degree, to avoid having be an issue in the future. Also, some of my more ambitious classmates have been taking a couple of the BSN courses while completing their ASN's, and they sound like classes I need to take. Even if I don't go on, a full semester on assessments sounds very useful.

If I had it to do over and had the resources, my route to nursing would be CNA-LPN-Diploma-BSN, and I think I might come out of that knowing how to be a nurse. From what I've seen, neither associates nor bachelors programs give you nearly enough hands-on. I'm sure they would love to, but there's so much to do and so little time, and they have to meet accreditation standards...

The reality appears to be what so many have said, you learn more nursing in the first year at work than in all your years of school, but that probably holds true in other fields.

Simulator time is not flight time.

Last semester, in Sociology, we discussed how we have become a credentialled society. With so much competition for good jobs, HR people tend to look for the ones with the most degrees. Doesn't mean they're getting the best employees, but if things don't work out, their butts are covered ("But, he/she had a college degree...") I've seen the trend even in building trades--where did you go to school?

To my thinking, Nursing is one profession that should buck the trend. We don't need uniform, predictable mediocrity.

We need the best people we can find, wherever we can find them, and a single mother of two with an ASN just might be more driven to excel than someone who always thought nursing might be fun, as well as a good way to meet doctors. (Not to say there aren't plenty of dedicated nurses who go straight from high school to a BSN--some people just know what they want to do at an early age, and do it.)

So, in short (well, that ship sailed several paragraphs ago), I think the diverse paths to nursing are a strength, I think we all have things to feed each other, and I still think we worry too much about being accepted as a profession. We are never going to get the same prestige as MD's among the general public. We can be respected within the health care community, if we earn it, and I think we have made some serious strides in that direction. We see a lot on these boards about doctors and others not respecting nurses, but where I work, that's an anomoly. Docs are usually civil, and the really sharp nurses are treated as colleagues, not helpers.

What we need to work on is being really sharp nurses, and school can only be the first step. Respecting and helping each other progress, in my opinion, would be an even more important step.

Before I started school, there were some nurses I worked with whom I wouldn't let watch my cats. There still are, but more and more I find myself seeing nurses I would have included in that category doing things I want to add to my practice. The less I know-it-all, the smarter some of them seem.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
You'll use statistics a lot. All sorts of nursing journals contain studies and you'll be better able to decide if you should bother making a new neuron for the info. and apply it to practice or if you'll take a wait and see attitude. Just because you want to be a bedside nurse doesn't mean that you're "wasting time" with non-clinical courses. The more education you get, the more exercise your brain gets.

Right. Thanks for your input. With all this I hope to ward of dementia, but it doesn't seem to be helping right now. :rotfl:

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
are you in traditional classes or taking online courses, or both, tweety? just curious.

100% online. Any outside projects can be done at your place of employment. The instructors have power point lectures, so the disadvantage is you can't ask questions as you go along, so it's not for everyone. I did have to call the instructor one morning, got her right away and she was very amicable in helping me. We have an online chat session live with her once a week. My chemistry course has chat classes, that if you have a microphone you can interact right then and there, or you can type your participation. Plus we can call the instructor, the chat group facilitor, and the student nurse tutor. Lots of layers of help, which is one good selling point of this school. (Florida Hospital College of Health Sciences).

It's very hard work, I'm learning quite a bit. It fits in well with my nighttime lifestyle. It's NLN approved, so if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Thanks for asking.

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