Low Down on Nursing Education

Nurses General Nursing

Published

In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.

1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.

2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.

3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.

4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.

5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.

6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.

7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
I so much agree with you. I also follow my agreement with this opinion / observation.

There is an academic snobbery that is projected by many BSRNs (.... I am not saying ALL), but many. :)

Fortunately, I've only come across this one time. When an RN in report stated with nose in the air "any ADN can put potassium in a bag of fluids and hang it, but it takes a BSN to know why...". I didn't go there with him, but a cowker at the same table laid into him. :)

I seriously agree with you and mattsmom, that's degrees aren't what makes a good nurse.

I'm also very aware of, and try not to be a snob, especially when asked "why are you getting a BSN". I could say "to make myself a better nurse" and someone could say "humph...he's so high and mighty thinking he's so superior getting his BSN...", I guess it's a matter of how I present myself. I do think a BSN is a more superior education than an ADN, but doesn't make one a superior nurse, if that makes sense.

Fortunately, I've only come across this one time. When an RN in report stated with nose in the air "any ADN can put potassium in a bag of fluids and hang it, but it takes a BSN to know why...". I didn't go there with him, but a cowker at the same table laid into him. :)

I seriously agree with you and mattsmom, that's degrees aren't what makes a good nurse.

I'm also very aware of, and try not to be a snob, especially when asked "why are you getting a BSN". I could say "to make myself a better nurse" and someone could say "humph...he's so high and mighty thinking he's so superior getting his BSN...", I guess it's a matter of how I present myself. I do think a BSN is a more superior education than an ADN, but doesn't make one a superior nurse, if that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense.

I have a dear friend who has a PHD in Law, and a PHD in Education, and married very wealthy. He is down to earth, personable, and an all around wonderful person who is loved and respected by everyone that he knows. Dennis is never prententious, stilted, or lofty in his speech or demeanor. He made himself the best that he could be, "himself", in his field, not to be better than others. This man never takes the persona that he is a "better" professor, attorney, or person than his colleagues and friends. He never speaks about how his superior education, degrees, or finances are to those of others. He never makes anyone feel that they are less than him, in any way. He lifts you up with him and never makes you feel beneath him. This man is an admired leader through his example. If he took the persona that he was superior, he would never have the love and respect that he has from others, and his great education and financial circumstances, alone, wouldn't give him the prestiege that he now enjoys.

Yes, I think what you are saying makes sense. :)

And I disagree with this entirely:

1. While nursing was primarily diploma programs in the past, nursing is now primarily degree programs. Just like our fellow allied health professionals such as Pharmacists and PT's have increased the amount of schooling, so has nursing. As far as on the job training, what profession doesn't often encompass this? For the basic skills, routine of it yes... it is on the job ie) perfecting your IV starts. But are nurses robots?? Or are we also critical thinkers, analyzing, interpreting, teaching our patients, etc. That isn't soley from being on the job... it is based on the fundaments of one's education.....

2. While I am sure educators are the ones pushing the most for BSN's, I will let you know that many, many facilities are seeking BSNs. In fact, the hospital I work for as a staff nurse will only hire BSN's.

3. Most management positions now require a master's degree.

4. Some MD's respect nurses......many others don't. I have personally gained respect from MD's one the job by my care and my input in the care of my critically ill patients, but also sharing the things I am doing outside of my job... like working on a second BS and taking grad classes... that has personally brought the most respect from them..... this is just in my personal experience

5. Continuing education involves being a lifetime learner.... in many aspects... gaining a formal degree, reading journals, researching current practices, learning things outside of nursing but that would make you better rounded......all of these are continuing ed.... not just doing your minimum # of ceu's

6. Don't really understand what you are saying.

7. Check your facts, there is a huge CRNA shortage....

Oh, heaven save us from the cliches that are supposed to substitute for knowledge! "Lifetime learner", "Thinking out of the box" and other such nonsense. There was nothing wrong with hospital-based training except that the feminists went berserk and wanted them destroyed. Never mind that other people might have wanted to train in hospitals. I went to New England Baptist Hospital School of Nursing. We did our clinical pediatric rotation at Children's in Boston. The politics of nursing was quite heated then. Talk of indentured servitude, patriarchal healthcare, hand-maiden. University education was supposed to break the shackles of this prior system designed to denigrate women. A few years after I graduated, Children's as well as numerous other hospitals in Boston started refusing to accept nursing students for clinical rotation unless they were in BSN programs, essentially killing off the hospital-based schools. And off nursing went, burning their caps and wearing canvas underwear like all the other feminists. Now I read articles about such "innovative programs" to address the horrible lack of technical skill on the part of the BSN grads. Their schools may actually team up with hospitals to provide hands on training! Talk about reinventing the wheel! People may think what they like about BSN vs ADRN or whatever, but I do not consider sitting around in university classrooms engaging in conjecture about where imaginary patients fall on the "health/illness continuum" a scientific or technical endeavor and in no way prepares nursing students for the high tech, demanding field they enter. Furthermore, as far as whether nursing has developed its own separate "science" distinct from medicine and so can be recognized as a profession, that is nonsense. Calling simple things such as wounds "alterations in skin integrity" or my personal favorite, an illness an "alteration in health maintenance" is not a specific separate body of knowledge. That is called memorizing jargon.

Here are some of my favorites -

Ineffective individual coping - what on earth is this? Altered nutrition - less than body requirements - risk for fluid volume deficit - impaired social interaction - self-esteem disturbance - and the list goes on and on

Who thought up these things? Who uses them?

Oh, heaven save us from the cliches that are supposed to substitute for knowledge! "Lifetime learner", "Thinking out of the box" and other such nonsense. There was nothing wrong with hospital-based training except that the feminists went berserk and wanted them destroyed. Never mind that other people might have wanted to train in hospitals. I went to New England Baptist Hospital School of Nursing. We did our clinical pediatric rotation at Children's in Boston. The politics of nursing was quite heated then. Talk of indentured servitude, patriarchal healthcare, hand-maiden. University education was supposed to break the shackles of this prior system designed to denigrate women. A few years after I graduated, Children's as well as numerous other hospitals in Boston started refusing to accept nursing students for clinical rotation unless they were in BSN programs, essentially killing off the hospital-based schools. And off nursing went, burning their caps and wearing canvas underwear like all the other feminists. Now I read articles about such "innovative programs" to address the horrible lack of technical skill on the part of the BSN grads. Their schools may actually team up with hospitals to provide hands on training! Talk about reinventing the wheel! People may think what they like about BSN vs ADRN or whatever, but I do not consider sitting around in university classrooms engaging in conjecture about where imaginary patients fall on the "health/illness continuum" a scientific or technical endeavor and in no way prepares nursing students for the high tech, demanding field they enter. Furthermore, as far as whether nursing has developed its own separate "science" distinct from medicine and so can be recognized as a profession, that is nonsense. Calling simple things such as wounds "alterations in skin integrity" or my personal favorite, an illness an "alteration in health maintenance" is not a specific separate body of knowledge. That is called memorizing jargon.
People may think what they like about BSN vs ADRN or whatever, but I do not consider sitting around in university classrooms engaging in conjecture about where imaginary patients fall on the "health/illness continuum" a scientific or technical endeavor and in no way prepares nursing students for the high tech, demanding field they enter.

What a great post! Nursing education would be much better off if the emphasis was placed on treating and caring for patients with complex illnesses, rather than on the psuedo-intellectual babble produced by nursing academia.

My personal favorite nursing diagnosis is Disturbed Energy Field. I have yet to see a patient hospitalized for a metaphysical crisis. I suppose you would realign their chakras with crystals or chant mantras.

I think advanced education is extremely important. Healthcare is an ever expanding discipline and keeping current with the advances in treatment is essential to providing excellent nursing care. It seems a shame to waste any of that education on theories such as "health as expanding consciousness" (Newman) and the "science of unitary human beings" (Rogers).

There seems to be such a concern with elevating the perception of nursing as a profession. I simply don't understand how producing graduates who are incapable of providing patient care makes nursing more of a "profession".

But, seriously, folks... I still think the ADN or ASN is fine as an entry level degree. Maybe not ideal, but ADN programs produce some excellent nurses who might not be nurses if that option wasn't available.

Should other professions design educational programs for those who might not otherwise be in that profession because it required a 4 yr degree? The ADN was designed because of a nursing shortage. I keep wondering why so many people think it is a fine entry level degree in a complex profession as nursing! Then my wife, who is a teacher, reminds me that the entire educational system is nothing like it used to be. Guess there's my answer...but if that is so, maybe we need the masters as entry level just to catch people up.

I have been advised by some very good BSN nurses NOT to waste my time going on. I have to respect their views, but I don't think their advice necessarily applies to me. Certainly, I see some value just in having the degree, to avoid having be an issue in the future. Also, some of my more ambitious classmates have been taking a couple of the BSN courses while completing their ASN's, and they sound like classes I need to take. Even if I don't go on, a full semester on assessments sounds very useful.

Looks like you value knowledge not just for knowledge's sake!

The reality appears to be what so many have said, you learn more nursing in the first year at work than in all your years of school, but that probably holds true in other fields.

There are few if any professions that expect graduates to be "hands-on" experts right out of school.

Last semester, in Sociology, we discussed how we have become a credentialled society.

Watch out, now...you might learn something that you can apply in those liberal arts courses!

To my thinking, Nursing is one profession that should buck the trend. We don't need uniform, predictable mediocrity.

But do we need some kind of uniform education versus the confusion we have now? Maybe one entry level degree with the ability for exceptional individuals to test out or receive advanced standing?

Well, if you see yourself as being "special" because of education or financial abundance, then you're really not so special. Don't forget all of the MBA jokes. MBAs have made themselves the brunt of many jokes by their less than effective business practices and lack of achievement within the business world. Once highly respected, the MBA has become one of the least valued degrees, are a dime a dozen, and have little value in today's marketplace. There was a very "superior" attitude thrown around by a multitude of MBAs. They have been brought, abruptly, down from their high horses.

While there are some who think the degree has little practical application, others still consider it in high demand...as the business world is also a complex arena. I happen to have one and I don't regret it...now that I've paid my loans off! Every professor actually worked in the field they taught and I learned a lot...including that hospital management is way behind other businesses! The MBA is still a very valuable degree, as is any degree which gives you more knowledge in a chosen field. Don't confuse the degree with the person.

Your education does not make you superior, in any way. Has anyone watched "The Apprentice" lately?

More education doesn't make you superior; it just means you have more knowledge. Now you have a better base from which to operate.

As for myself, I only have a high school diploma and a couple of years of college, so please forgive me if my communication skill set is lacking.

Your communication skills are fine.

Right. Thanks for your input. With all this I hope to ward of dementia, but it doesn't seem to be helping right now. :rotfl:

Keeping your mind challenged will help. Keep studying! :chuckle

Oh, heaven save us from the cliches that are supposed to substitute for knowledge! "Lifetime learner", "Thinking out of the box" and other such nonsense.

"Nonsense?" How so?

People may think what they like about BSN vs ADRN or whatever, but I do not consider sitting around in university classrooms engaging in conjecture about where imaginary patients fall on the "health/illness continuum" a scientific or technical endeavor and in no way prepares nursing students for the high tech, demanding field they enter.

Case study is actually a very good learning method prior to getting in the clinical setting.

What a great post! Nursing education would be much better off if the emphasis was placed on treating and caring for patients with complex illnesses, rather than on the psuedo-intellectual babble produced by nursing academia.

I agree here!

My personal favorite nursing diagnosis is Disturbed Energy Field. I have yet to see a patient hospitalized for a metaphysical crisis. I suppose you would realign their chakras with crystals or chant mantras.

I use this one in my Zen Shiatsu practice...where I also use the nursing process along with Eastern Medicine philosophy. Ever talk to someone in crisis...or touch them? You just made an energetic shift!

It seems a shame to waste any of that education on theories such as "health as expanding consciousness" (Newman) and the "science of unitary human beings" (Rogers).

Do you think that theories have a place anywhere? "Consciousness." Lot's of study going on here in healthcare. If we know so little about it and can't measure it, does that mean all double-blind studies are junk?

I simply don't understand how producing graduates who are incapable of providing patient care makes nursing more of a "profession".

So many people can't get off this track. A degree means you can enter the profession and now start learning the "real stuff." Schools that teach only the technical stuff are called "trade schools." The military has it correct. Their training is called "basic."

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
Should other professions design educational programs for those who might not otherwise be in that profession because it required a 4 yr degree? The ADN was designed because of a nursing shortage. I keep wondering why so many people think it is a fine entry level degree in a complex profession as nursing!

You make a good point, here. Not too many people around advocating fast tracks or alternative routes for doctors or lawyers. Then again, Physician Assistants and Paralegals are, to some extent, exactly that. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see ASN RN's viewed as "paranurses."

I do have a bit of historical precedent for my view, in that it used to be the case that anyone who passed the bar could practice law--but that has changed, of late, so it's a better support to your argument.

But do we need some kind of uniform education versus the confusion we have now? Maybe one entry level degree with the ability for exceptional individuals to test out or receive advanced standing?

Honestly, I just don't see what we have now as all that confusing. We argue the crap out of it, here, but on the floors we look to the nurses who know their stuff, regardless of where they learned it.

Part of the problem, I think, is that nursing is more like surgery than medicine. It's more than an intellectual process--there's a huge element of manual skill, as well.

That's what I so admire about the diploma programs--they teach both parts. Collegiate programs do the best they can, too, but all programs run into limitations. Maybe that's also why these discussions tend to get heated: BSN programs don't like to admit that they are just as limited as the alternatives.

If I could spend four years really learning what I've learned in two, so that I knew it inside and out and could access every bit with ease, I'd say without hesitation that was good. But to spend two years learning what I've learned in two and two more years learning statistics and management, and English Lit (on top of the composition courses I've already taken) seems less valuable than two years of school and two years of work experience.

Oh, and I would never mean to disparage learning for its own sake. I only suggest that there are other ways to do it than a liberal arts degree. I read a lot. I watch C-SPAN. I converse with people in fields other than my own. These are valid ways of learning accessible to anyone, and have the advantage that each of us can partake of as much or as little of them as suits us. I firmly believe that the foundations of this sort of learning should be well established in secondary education, in which case nothing would be lost by making post-secondary (tertiary?) education more career-oriented.

Specializes in LDRP; Education.

Honestly, I just don't see what we have now as all that confusing. We argue the crap out of it, here, but on the floors we look to the nurses who know their stuff, regardless of where they learned it.

Part of the problem, I think, is that nursing is more like surgery than medicine. It's more than an intellectual process--there's a huge element of manual skill, as well.

That's what I so admire about the diploma programs--they teach both parts. Collegiate programs do the best they can, too, but all programs run into limitations. Maybe that's also why these discussions tend to get heated: BSN programs don't like to admit that they are just as limited as the alternatives.

Perhaps they don't, but I personally don't see a BSN, despite it's limited clinical time, as limiting at all, but rather opportunity.

BSN classes (non-nursing courses) aren't necessarily meant to teach you the content but rather the process involved in finding the answers. A common analogy I use is my computer programming course that I had to take as a pre-req for my particular college. I learned Pascal, great, of course I never use it. But programming instead taught me how to logically work through a problem and find an answer. As an educator myself, most learning is meant not necessarily about the content, but about learning how to find answers and different ways. These skills ALL translate to the bedside, especially during these times when we ALL work with less.

If I could spend four years really learning what I've learned in two, so that I knew it inside and out and could access every bit with ease, I'd say without hesitation that was good. But to spend two years learning what I've learned in two and two more years learning statistics and management, and English Lit (on top of the composition courses I've already taken) seems less valuable than two years of school and two years of work experience.

But the thing I believe is, you CAN'T learn what you learned in 4 years in 2. It seems like you could, but I don't believe anyone can.

I come from the perspective of working in an organization that is about 90% ADN and diploma nursing graduates. And most of them are excellent clinically. But the barriers I've seen when it comes to other issues around nursing, such as the common "thinking outside the box" type of thinking, it is lacking here. Getting nurses here to look at research and determine best practice is like pulling teeth, literally. None of them took stats (they found it a waste of time) and laugh at research as they find it too far removed from the bedside. Yet here we are, operating with policies and procedures that DO NOT reflect best practice and instead may even cause harm to the patient! In my opinion, the higher-ups shouldn't be revising these - if nurses want any say in their own profession, THEY should be involved with knowing the current literature and revising their own practice to reflect this.

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