In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
Most BSN programs consist of 2 years focusing on liberal arts and then focusing on nursing for the last 2 years. So, in a sense adrn, most generic BSN programs already follow the model you are suggesting. They just require 4 years instead of 6 years.
Anyone who believes that a nursing education should include a strong liberal arts component (as the OP says he does), should be very supportive of BSN programs. That is the whole priniciple on which BSN programs were established -- on the idea that nurses should have balance college education that includes liberal arts and NOT just the nursing courses.
It does strike me, though that some people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and "talk down" about those who have chosen to pursue advanced degrees. Just as those with BSN/MSN/PhD shouldn't present themselves as superior, neither should those with ADN/Diploma criticize those who go on for further education.
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I couldn't agree more! Great post.
I wonder what kind of preceptor the OP would make for a new grad with a BSN ... or someone who was in the process of going back to school for a BSN or MSN. Would the OP be a supportive colleague?
As a pre-nursing student, I find the emotions behind the posts very interesting. I think the level of education that anyone achieves should be thought of as a great achievement for that person, not as a measuring tool for others.
I'm in my last semester of pre-reqs and will be 46 this year. I wish I would have started this whole process when I was younger! My goals at this time are to get my ADN, start some floor nursing and gravitate to the ED. I hope to acquire my BSN and continue my education with as many additional certifications as possible. Why? Because I love learning and teaching.
Had I started this process younger, I would then continue for a PhD and a practice as a nurse educator.
My goals are purely to satisfy my own needs and desires (helping others). I admire those who achieve, or are striving to acheive, thier goals for their own satisfaction. Not because others expect them to get them or in order to be "good enough".
Life is just too darned short to worry about "one upping" anyone else. IMHO, when it comes right down to it, does it really matter what anyone else thinks?? If you aren't feeling successful or happy about where you are, maybe you need to look deep in your heart for your true goals. Life is a process.... you can change your direction anytime you choose to.
The philosophy of nursing is studied quite extensively....some would say ..ad nauseum, in most BSN programs!
I just started ADN to BSN, and the first course is ad nauseum theory and philosphy. We had to write papers on theorists and our own philosphy. Actually, I'm gaining a lot of insight into the profression that I didn't get in the ADN program, and it's helping me.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
This is to ADNRN,
I have to respectfully agree that your initial post is somewhat flawed, your passion is obvious and your line of logic is incomplete though.
In it you state that Sociology and Psychology are easy degrees and that is the reason people pursue them...? Do you really believe this?
You are attempting to delegitimize every Social Worker's passion and zest for helping others and society merely by claiming it is an ez degree to go for.
Flawed or most likely, incomplete thought processes. It is nice though to have a forum where we can share our developing selves.
Nice to meet you, good luck with your degree. I am not an RN yet, (have six classes to go for the ADN but am trying to gain acceptance to a Masters level entry program). Yes, I have read many different views on those in this forum in the Nurse Practitioner thread titled, "A Rant, NP education."
Gennaver
I think we all are passionate in this. I admit, my logic may be flawed at times, too. I think we all need to learn to get along and stop beating the dead horse, as Tweety said. Making BSN the entry level point for nursing, to me is ideal, but not doable in today's environment. It's just not realistic to expect it to happen soon.
Without your classes you have in Nursing school (Patho, Micro, anat,etc) you would have no foundation. I am a Nurse Educator at the Hospital I work in (MS BSN)and I see many Nurses coming out of school without that foundation.
That want TASK - not thinking. Nursing is so much more than task - you have to use that foundation along with your clinical sense to do the right thing at the right time (not just passing meds). While you do learn at work - that in itself is not enough. When you are truly a nurse - also your post sounds more like a disgruntled student then a professional Nurse - Once you are a NURSE and working you will see what I mean - God Bless - GP
I think all nurses BSN or ADN come out of nursing school with patho, mirco and anatomy as their foundation. Or at least the nursing program here do, and my ADN in NC did. From what I've seen, most nurses BSN or ADN come out focusing on tasks. (In fact there's a theory about that, from novice to expert or something like that. Basically stating that all new grads are task-focused novices, nothing wrong with that. Perhaps you're expecting too much from people coming out of school, or forget what it's like.)
But, it must be frustrating to deal with nursing who don't have a good grasp of the foundations from a biophysical point of view.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I think all nurses BSN or ADN come out of nursing school with patho, mirco and anatomy as their foundation. Or at least the nursing program here do, and my ADN in NC did. From what I've seen, most nurses BSN or ADN come out focusing on tasks. (In fact there's a theory about that, from novice to expert or something like that. Basically stating that all new grads are task-focused novices, nothing wrong with that. Perhaps you're expecting too much from people coming out of school, or forget what it's like.)
But, it must be frustrating to deal with nursing who don't have a good grasp of the foundations from a biophysical point of view.
excellent points. And those who say they can tell a BSN from an ADN just by watching them? I don't buy that for a minute. A new nurse is a new nurse. Experience is one of the greatest teachers. I KNOW I was totally task-focused my first months out of school. And I know I frustrated my coworkers while they patiently tried to teach me my trade. I just hope no one can point a finger at me and say "unprofessional, task-focused nurse". If that is were the case, I would be in trouble. But don't tell me you can tell a BSN from ADN on the floor. I dont' think so!
Nope Deb, being in med-surg, I've seen literally hudreds, if not more new grads pass my way, and I can honestly say I can't tell a BSN from an ADN. They both are pretty green, both need help learning the ropes and are task-focused.
I had an experience with a BSN nurse the other day who told me to run an overnight tube feeding at 15 cc's an hour. Critically thinking ADN nurse that I am, I asked why are we giving such a miniscule amount. Ms. BSN said "because the doctor ordered it". (She's been there 15 years, so she's not a novice.) Come to find out the MD meant to write 150 cc/hr after I did some investigating.
So no, Deb, I can't tell the difference even between an experienced BSN and an ADN sometimes.
As I am a BSN student currently, obviously I find much value in the BSN and I recommend to anyone able to achieve it. I'm learning so much, and it can't but help me to become a better nurse all around, no doubt about it.
A few random thoughts regarding nursing education if I may.
A decade ago I had 2 BA/BS undergraduate degrees, plus graduate work in two areas with courses in Research/Design & Business/Accounting; I had a great many "life experiences", had worked several years as a CPA as a supervisor/manager, had an Associates in Nursing with 3 years critical care experience, completed a course in ACLS when that was an accomplishment and obtained a CCRN certification. However, when I considered returning to school for a BSN at that point I was disappointed to learn that it would take an additional 2.5 years and at considerable expense. In essense, my entire nursing career had been discounted as well as a significant portion of my academic record. Does this sound reasonable to anyone? Well, it didn't to me, but that was the "world" of BSN education around here at the time (and we had several programs in close proximity).
Fast forward to the present. I just saw an advertisement.....RN to BSN Program, complete in only 28 Class Days on the weekend. Remote sites, distance learning, web based classes, advanced placement, accelerated learning etc etc---- all virtually unheard of 10 years ago are readily available from several public and private institutions now. In fact, some nursing BSN completion programs are advertising on the radio.
In the past when these BSN vs ADN "discussions" took place we pretty much knew what we comparing, at least on a generic level. (Funny how we ignored the glaring quality disparities among programs at each level). But now, just what exactly does obtaining a BSN mean?
Anyone believe, for example, that those 28 class days would make an RN a better leader, a more astute consumer of research, a better critical thinker, more well rounded, a safer practitioner who obtains improved outcomes etc etc?
Graduate education, sadly is no different. In less time (2 years) than I could have completed a BSN with nursing experience ten years ago, I see programs for people with unrelated BS/BA degrees which confer a Masters. Do graduates of such programs have the experiences, clinical and otherwise to make knowledgable decisions when they obtain leadership positions after graduation? That has not been my experience.
I see an increasingly more "degreed" (and school loan indebted) nursing workforce in the near future. That is because I see the true state of our economy, and nursing jobs will gain in value at first due to a perception of stability ...but as our schools of nursing gear up to churn out more and more graduates (and the importing of foreign BSNs continues) AD graduates will be pressured to complete their educations in order to be more competitive in a tighter job market. I do not anticipate increases in respect and compensation.....only increases in the letters following names on badges.
I love hearing peoples opinions on either side!!! Best wishes to all!!! And lets all work for whats best for the patients!!!
The post Education always ends up with 100 posts--and one degree vs. another. (I know a lot of the posts are from the same people--it's great to feel so strong about something--it's very interesting reading 1 persons post--you get a feel about that person) We all seem very strong, and energetic in our beliefs--Hopefully we can all work together as one strong unit!!!
It's so funny I've been an R.N. for 10 years--I've worked at 3 different hospitals. And none of those three hospitals are we divided ADN vs BSN, but coming to this board mention education--ADN/BSN--wow lots of strong post.
llg, PhD, RN
13,469 Posts
Most BSN programs consist of 2 years focusing on liberal arts and then focusing on nursing for the last 2 years. So, in a sense adrn, most generic BSN programs already follow the model you are suggesting. They just require 4 years instead of 6 years.
Anyone who believes that a nursing education should include a strong liberal arts component (as the OP says he does), should be very supportive of BSN programs. That is the whole priniciple on which BSN programs were established -- on the idea that nurses should have balance college education that includes liberal arts and NOT just the nursing courses.
llg