In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
This dead horse has been beaten so much it should be nothing but dust!
OP has a lot to learn in this world and unfortunately this post shows it...my other overwhelming thought is that this looks a lot like Roland in disguise...wonder if he's hiding out as the wolf in sheep's clothing?
Thanks! - I am a non-traditional third semester (out of 5) in a two year program. I feel frustrated that I am not learning what is real but what is ideal. I've been pondering what I see in clinicals, trying to decide whether I should continue to a four year or work. Your suggestion to subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs was excellent! Any suggestioned magazines?
Thanks for the perspective!
In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
I already conceded that a BS is a good education level to have for a nurse; just look back a little through the replies. I just don't think a BSN is the degree to have, even though that's what the nursing community wants. I think a BS in some other field may be the best thing to have. It would make a more well-rounded nurse.
I'll go even further--I think, now, that a person should have a BS or BA with AP 1,2, and microbiology, psych, soc, human growth and development as prerequisits before they can even enter a nursing program, which would be two years.
They would then graduate with something like a Masters degree in applied science in Nursing as a result.
I finished a BSc in Liberal Arts. The ADN I'm almost done with has been far tougher than anything I ever did, even as a junior and senior. Why not just do it that way?
Make nursing school a masters level program, because it certainly isn't anything like an associates degree program. I slept through my first two years in college and still got a B. Nursing school is a different animal altogether.
I say BS or BA and then nursing school as the entry level requirement.
Yes/No? Who's with me?
I'm in a 2+2 program, and I think it's a great way to go. You get an ADN in two years, then can go on for BSN in two more. I don't see a need to make it harder to get into nursing than it is. Of course, I'm a non-traditional student, and I'm getting into nursing from a mostly vocational orientation.
A co-worker advised me, not long ago, to go into critical care or emergency, because I would be wasting my talents as a med-surg floor nurse, which is all I really want to be. It was nice to hear, until I started thinking, "What talents?" Then I decided that my real talents are empathy and listening, and the bedside is where I want to be.
Even among my instructors, there is discussion about "professional" nurses and "technical" nurses, although I haven't noticed any acrimony. I think it's a valid distinction, as long as it isn't a disparaging one. As noted in other threads, most hospitals would be in deep doo-doo without CNA's, and I think there is just as much need for "plain old nurses." But you can't run a hospital without professionals, too.
A couple of diploma nurses I work with say degree nurses don't get nearly enough clinical training. I agree. A couple of BSN nurses say half of what they learned has nothing to do with their jobs. I agree with them, too--sort of. I really enjoyed the American Government course I had to take in my ADN program, but its relevence to nursing seems real limited.
I drive 20 miles to attend an ADN school with a perfectly good BSN school 3 miles from my door--I work there! I do it because it would be hard to spend 4 years in school before I could get a decent job. Many of my classmates are in much the same boat--especially those whose dependants can't go out and catch a mouse or bird for themselves.
At this point, I do plan to go back for the BSN, probably after working a year or two, and I'm hoping my work experience will enrich my education, and vice versa. But I'm very glad that nursing affords a flexible opportunity to advance, and I think requiring a BSN for entry level will ultimately just leave out a lot of really good potential nurses.
So, I do have to disagree with what seemed implied in the OP, that education is just a racket, but I don't think we should ever be so preoccupied with being seen as a "profession" that we exclude some of the best nurses I know, many of whom are diploma or ADN. As a student nurse and unliscensed assistive person, it appears to me that it's a big enough job for all the good help we can get. (And yes, I've seen some damned fine BSN's, too, including a few who have come right out of school with NO prior healthcare experience!)
Obviously, English was a big waste of time, since I can't even remember how to spell license.
I am a diploma trained nurse. I was trained in the days when this was the accepted level of education to be a registered nurse, under the British model of training. In our training we had to cover much of what is done today - anatomy and phsiology, chemistry, mathematics, unit management etc. It was a three years program consiting of pratical training on the unit and class room. By the second year of training the student was given some responsibility for management of the unit and supervision of other staff, usually on the evening or night shift. It was rigorous, demanding training, and those who could not make it were weeded out along the way. But we developed a lot of clinical and management skills, by the time that our training was completed.
Since coming to The United States I have felt the need to gain a college degree as this is the accepted level for many entry level jobs. However I have not felt the need to do a BSN. I believed that I needed to expand into different areas. So I have a bachelors in Community Health and a Masters in Health Administration, along with my diploma training this has enabled me to acquire all of the analytical skills etc. Currently I am enrolled in a PHD program in Human Services.
I do believe that in this century the BSN should be the entry level for nursing practice. For those nurses with their diplomas, ADN, other health related degrees should be accepted.
Most importanly as nurses we have to respect each other no matter our level of education. I have worked with ADN, BSN, MSN, PHD nurses and believe me that the degree does not matter when there is a code blue for example - just how you respond. And it has nothing to do with your degree, but your skills and experience as a nurse is what enables you to successfully manage the situation.
So education is important, but let us respect all levels and support each other.
Boy, the argument about educational levels never ends, does it? Figured I'd jump in with my 2 cents:
ADN/Diploma certainly prepares you for entry level to be a great bedside clinician. And if you choose to stay at the bedside, that's awesome...we need you!
BSN/MSN/PhD adds to the knowledge base, critical thinking, research skills, etc, that you learned in your initial program. Also prepares you for teaching, research, and enhances your leadership skills. Nothing wrong with that.
Advanced Certifications and Continuing Ed programs add to your clinical knowledge base, and demonstrate that you have advanced skill in a particular area. Also a good thing.
It does strike me, though that some people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and "talk down" about those who have chosen to pursue advanced degrees. Just as those with BSN/MSN/PhD shouldn't present themselves as superior, neither should those with ADN/Diploma criticize those who go on for further education.
Education is all good...just depends on what you want to do, and what field of nursing you want to go into. So no one is better than anyone else, just choosing different paths...it's all good.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
Without your classes you have in Nursing school (Patho, Micro, anat,etc) you would have no foundation. I am a Nurse Educator at the Hospital I work in (MS BSN)and I see many Nurses coming out of school without that foundation.
That want TASK - not thinking. Nursing is so much more than task - you have to use that foundation along with your clinical sense to do the right thing at the right time (not just passing meds). While you do learn at work - that in itself is not enough. When you are truly a nurse - also your post sounds more like a disgruntled student then a professional Nurse - Once you are a NURSE and working you will see what I mean - God Bless - GP
In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
Without your classes you have in Nursing school (Patho, Micro, anat,etc) you would have no foundation. I am a Nurse Educator at the Hospital I work in (MS BSN)and I see many Nurses coming out of school without that foundation.
That want TASK - not thinking. Nursing is so much more than task - you have to use that foundation along with your clinical sense to do the right thing at the right time (not just passing meds). While you do learn at work - that in itself is not enough. When you are truly a nurse - also your post sounds more like a disgruntled student then a professional Nurse - Once you are a NURSE and working you will see what I mean - God Bless - GP
I am sorry. ...but I feel you ARE trying to "start"something. I see i it alot ...If I am wrong, let me go on record as apologizing for that. But I still disagree with your post. I have that right. As you do to rebuke my viewpoint. We both need to separate personal attacks from honest criticism. Have a good day now. I am duly chagrined.
This is to ADNRN,
I have to respectfully agree that your initial post is somewhat flawed, your passion is obvious and your line of logic is incomplete though.
In it you state that Sociology and Psychology are easy degrees and that is the reason people pursue them...? Do you really believe this?
You are attempting to delegitimize every Social Worker's passion and zest for helping others and society merely by claiming it is an ez degree to go for.
Flawed or most likely, incomplete thought processes. It is nice though to have a forum where we can share our developing selves.
Nice to meet you, good luck with your degree. I am not an RN yet, (have six classes to go for the ADN but am trying to gain acceptance to a Masters level entry program). Yes, I have read many different views on those in this forum in the Nurse Practitioner thread titled, "A Rant, NP education."
You presented your views as if they are facts, which they are not. I went from an ADN to BSN to MSN degree and can testify there is a difference in each degree program. Lumping all nursing roles into one is a mistake employers, unions and some nurses make---but our jobs vary considerably. The roles I have now in staff development are so different from being a staff nurse, and a staff nurse from the nursery has different roles than a staff nurse in cardiac rehab. I believe the degrees prepared me for different roles. Just because I am not working on the floor full time does not make me less of a nurse. I say hooray for nursing because it is so flexible and allows for so many personalities to contribute their talents.
1. Everything you needed to be a nurse, you were able to learn within nursing school. Currently, nursing school can be done through diploma programs. Granted, one needs a basic education to get through nursing school and to think critically. Perhaps that is best done through a college degree in liberal arts. I concede this point. It would be rare for someone to graduate high school only, then go through a diploma program, and be the critical thinker they need to be.
~~~~~
i graduated hs and went to nursing school. i scored very well on my sats and chose nursing over becoming a dentist, actually.
i was an **rn** at **20**.
i wanted a college degree, so i went on to get my bsn.
i worked in critical care and became a cen and ccrn during the following 10 years.
i started my masters and i am an acls instructor.
if you really think that you will learn everything you need to know from your nursing school to be a great nurse, then quit now. we don't need underachievers.
nursing is moving ahead and we're not letting people like you pull us back.
with an attitude like yours, i see nothing great in your future, or in your patient's!
:deadhorse :lol_hitti :smiley_ab :argue:
Shotzie
130 Posts
This dead horse has been beaten so much it should be nothing but dust!
OP has a lot to learn in this world and unfortunately this post shows it...my other overwhelming thought is that this looks a lot like Roland in disguise...wonder if he's hiding out as the wolf in sheep's clothing?