Boarding - two 16yr old girls going to Paris in a party via train with 18 boys. Usual result is 16 disappointed boys, and two distraught girls.
Girl A is going out with Boy A who is celebrating his 18th. Girl B is best friend of Girl A, and this will be her first trip away.
My role - nurse, but also parent in 'loco-parentis'
I know students very well. I know the hurt that often happens on trip. I know parents usually have no idea what goes on during such trips. These trips happen every year, and I'm left to pick up the pieces, whether it be intoxicated/drugged kid in ICU, head injury, or some other nasty surprise.
I call parents of girl A to make sure they are aware daughter is with 18 boys. Rationale, I'm a parent and I know my father would never have let my sister go on such a trip. Also figuring out my role as i'm considered a nurse and a parent.
What do I do, - I call father of girl A who gets angry, tells me off, says he trusts his daughter. Due to the angry reaction, I don't call the parents of Girl B
Result - girl B and girl A are in my office on monday morning, trying to figure out if girl B has been raped.
Boyfriend of girl A had a best friend who booked a room in hotel forhimself as well as girl B, and girl B felt she had to share a room/bed with him because she had left the booking up to the boys, and along with alcohol, eventually consented, but now not so sure.
It's not always easy figuring out what the best thing too do.
I am amazed that this school punishes someone for smoking, but appears to be fine with drinking binges that result in injured people, possible rape situations, etc.
I am amazed that this school punishes someone for smoking, but appears to be fine with drinking binges that result in injured people, possible rape situations, etc.
The kids are out on pass, technically under the supervision of their own parents. Only instead of going home, they're taking a train to go party for the weekend. They're not in the school's domain at that time.
(Not justifying - just explaining how I think it goes.)
Ah yes, Tenebrae. Perhaps we'll be reading Confessions of a forum provocateur in 2016
Did I do wrong in phoning the parents of Girl A even though I meant well? I brought in my values, the way my parents would behave.
OP, you asked a question and have received several replies from different posters.
My own answers (#33 and #58) to your question have received no comment from you. In fact you've hardly commented on any of the answers given. Were you looking for advice? This is a genuine question, no snark intended.
My condensed answer to your question (a summary of my previous rambling posts ) is:
1) Yes I believe that you were wrong in only calling the parents of a female student. I think this reflects your own moral values more than the safeguarding of the overall safety of all the teenagers. That said, I'm not sure that you could have successfully prevented the excessive partying style/habits of the über rich youths by intervening. Some endeavours are sadly (in my admittedly somewhat jaded opinion) doomed to fail.
2) If there is a question of whether a rape or other type of sexual assault has taken place, it is a matter for the police and the prosecutor. It's not something a school nurse should try to decide on his or her own.
thanks, I appreciate your response. But I've learned to keep my trap shut, it's been quite painful reading all the comments. I realise I said some silly things, but still, the response has been surprising.
For cases like this, they're way out of my depth, and as soon as the girls told me what was wrong, i had my manager, school doctor, counselor take over. The thing about this job, is that when I first came here, nearly every situation was new, and I wasn't afraid to admit I didn't know what to do, so I turned to others for support, and let them take over. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is that often I know nothing, and I'm fine with that. I've learned to appreciate the knowledge and skills of those around me.
On a more philosophical note, don't we all make some decisions based on our moral values? If I was okay with the upcoming part and the girl/boy ratio, and chose to do nothing, isn't that a moral judgment, because I found that ok and didn't act?
I simply don't know. But there's been hundreds of other situations where it's been difficult to know what to do.
thanks, I appreciate your response. But I've learned to keep my trap shut, it's been quite painful reading all the comments. I realise I said some silly things, but still, the response has been surprising.
You admit to saying "silly things," so you can't be surprised that people are turned off by some of your posts.
For cases like this, they're way out of my depth, and as soon as the girls told me what was wrong, i had my manager, school doctor, counselor take over. The thing about this job, is that when I first came here, nearly every situation was new, and I wasn't afraid to admit I didn't know what to do, so I turned to others for support, and let them take over. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is that often I know nothing, and I'm fine with that. I've learned to appreciate the knowledge and skills of those around me.
I am going to agree with this. In my opinion, I think you have crossed some boundaries, as evidenced by the fact that you see yourself as some kind of parental figure. We work in a profession, where "knowing nothing" does a disservice to our patient and can be quite dangerous. The fact that you did not understand your role in the scenario tells me you should reevaluate your ability to provide effective, safe, and professional care and act accordingly.
On a more philosophical note, don't we all make some decisions based on our moral values? If I was okay with the upcoming part and the girl/boy ratio, and chose to do nothing, isn't that a moral judgment, because I found that ok and didn't act?
I simply don't know. But there's been hundreds of other situations where it's been difficult to know what to do.
We do, and I believe having a good moral center is essential to being an effective nurse. However in this profession, we need to know when not to make decisions based on your moral values. As the school nurse, you are not responsible for policing who a teen hangs out with, when she is not in school. By not acting, you are not making a moral judgement, you are allowing others to make the choices they are going to make.
I've learned to keep my trap shut, it's been quite painful reading all the comments. I realise I said some silly things, but still, the response has been surprising.
I can understand that. I think that some of the more tough or even harsh responses are mainly down to two things. First of all many forum members, myself included, are suspicious of new posters who start off by posting about sex, sexuality, genitalia and/or modesty. We've all seen a few posters like that in the past who were probably either afflicted with some serious emotional issues or posted for some type of gratification.
The second reason, and you've already acknowledged this, is that you didn't tell the story in a very clear way and added information later on that should have been included from start for clarity and understandability.
On a more philosophical note, don't we all make some decisions based on our moral values?
In our personal lives, certainly. At work I think that our guide should be our employer's job description (assuming it's legal) and the nursing code of ethics. I can see myself not accepting a job offer if the job description conflicted with my personal values, or resigning from one for the same reason. What I don't think is acceptable is injecting my own morals into patient care. Nursing, as has been said a thousand times, is about the patient. It's not about the nurse.
If I was okay with the upcoming part and the girl/boy ratio, and chose to do nothing, isn't that a moral judgment, because I found that ok and didn't act?
I don't think that would constitute a moral judgment. I don't think it's in a nurse's scope/ job responsibility to decide in the first place what girl/boy ratio on a trip, is considered appropriate.
I'm still not sure why you find two girls travelling with eighteen boys inappropriate or a bad idea. Should teenage boys and girls not go on trips together at all? Would five boys and fifteen girls have been better/acceptable?
Is it the mere fact that the boys outnumber the girls that you find problematic or morally wrong? Or is it the fact that girls are allowed to spend time with boys at all?
Or is it the likely consumption of alcohol and perhaps drugs as well as the lack of adult supervision that bothers you?
Just to make my own standpoint on this matter clear. I allow the same amount of freedom to young women as I do to young men. I demand the same level of accountability from both sexes. I expect them both to treat other people "right".
I don't judge their morals by different standards.
"In loco parentis" is a legal term which essentially means that agencies governed by it (like, schools) have a responsibility to function in the role of parent when children are in their care. However, the role of loco parentis in these cases can also be legally limited.
This exists, too, in the U.S. Primary and secondary schools, for instance, are governed by laws that are essentially in loco parentis. This allows schools to cross lines that, as adults, we have rights that protect us from being crossed. One example of this is search and seizure. A school may search students without a warrant.
As parents, we trust our schools to protect our children. In loco parentis provides a legal basis for this. This is a legal concept, which is where the term "parent" has come from in this thread. It is a legal term in respect to the OP's situation, which I'm not sure has been clearly defined and described by the school to the OP. OP is taking the term parent in the way he has stated here - guiding growth and development of these children through nurturing and moral development. This is a legal term, though. Not a definition of a different kind of family unit.
That's why I keep reiterating in my posts - this needs to be learned about more by the OP. And policy needs to be clear, created and implemented based on it.
Is there a legal responsibility to these children regarding their behaviors when their behaviors while in "custody" of their actual parents affects medical treatment of these students as patients when they are in the custody of the school? (particularly considering the severity of the situations these kids are getting into - remember nurses have a duty to protect vulnerable populations)
The OP hasn't asked that question in that way, but I'm positive that's what he has been trying to ultimately figure out. Moral and legal obligations within loco parentis.
If the parents do not know what happens on the students party trips and students will lie to the parents in order to go on the trips, it is up to the principal to inform the parents ahead of time. The principal should send a warning letter /email to the parents stating that the trip is not sanctioned by the school and there will not be any adult chaparones accompanying the students. The warning should explain that during past trips, students have become intoxicated from drugs and alcohol to the extent that they required hospitalization and in some cases students have been sexually assaulted.
Pepper The Cat, BSN, RN
1,790 Posts
I am amazed that this school punishes someone for smoking, but appears to be fine with drinking binges that result in injured people, possible rape situations, etc.