Is there really no way to refuse a mandatory flu shot?

ixchel · Jan 10, 2014

I don't work in a hospital (and yes mandatory flu vax is one of the many reasons why i've never pursued that.) This just illustrates why the flu vax is a fool's errand - forcing nurses to get the shot is like tossing pebbles into the ocean. Patients, their families/visitors, etc. carry the flu in and out everyday. A patient with the flu where i work (sub acute rehab) can transmit it to an entire floor without a nurse ever being involved - they can walk up and down the halls touching everything, cough all over the shared shower room, share droplets with everyone at their table in the dining room, give their visiting families hugs and kisses, get up close and personal with other patients in physical therapy...all while contagious and before ever showing symptoms. Forcing nurses to get a flu shot is not going to reduce patient infection even a little bit.[/quote']
I'd like to see research evidence to back up your last statement. If the nurses are physically interacting with the patients, how does preventing them from getting the flu NOT reduce transmission?

allnurses Guide · Jan 11, 2014

I don't work in a hospital (and yes, mandatory flu vax is one of the many reasons why i've never pursued that.) This just illustrates why the flu vax is a fool's errand - forcing nurses to get the shot is like tossing pebbles into the ocean. Patients, their families/visitors, etc. carry the flu in and out everyday. A patient with the flu where i work (sub acute rehab) can transmit it to an entire floor without a nurse ever being involved - they can walk up and down the halls touching everything, cough all over the shared shower room, share droplets with everyone at their table in the dining room, give their visiting families hugs and kisses, get up close and personal with other patients in physical therapy...all while contagious and before ever showing symptoms. Forcing nurses to get a flu shot is not going to reduce patient infection even a little bit.

This shows a lack of understanding how immunizations work, herd immunity, and the last sentence is just plain false.

ceccia · Jan 11, 2014

I'd like to see research evidence to back up your last statement.

Feel free to search. Personally I'd like for research to be used as a complement to, not a substitute for, common sense and independent critical thinking.

Mrs. Smith comes into the rehab facility from the hospital. She's got the flu but doesn't know it yet. She joins 3 other people at the table in the dining room for dinner, sharing pics of her chihuahuas and a bit of flu virus to go along with it.

Mr. Jones gets a visit from his daughter and grandkids. The youngest has been complaining of feeling tired, but won't start exhibiting flu symptoms until early the next morning. Hugs and kisses are exchanged, and so is the flu virus. Mr. Jones gets it, uses the bathroom in his room. The cleaning staff are doing their job, but obviously can't sanitize every room after every single use, so Mr. Jones' roommate uses the bathroom after him and picks it up.

Mrs. X hasn't been feeling well, but doesn't tell anyone because she thinks it's just a cold and no big deal. She goes to the rehab gym for therapy and comes in contact with other patients, including Mr. Y, who then brings it back to his room and infects his roommate.

The roommate, still asymptomatic, goes to the common room for a game of cards with several other guys, including Mr. Z. Mr. Z is feeling pretty good about his chances of staying healthy this season even despite being in constant close quarters with so many other people. After all, he got a flu shot a few weeks ago. But what's this? There are different strains of the flu, and the vaccine only protects against the few most common? Too bad the guy dealing the cards has one of the other strains. Now everyone else at the table does too.

At least the flu is contained to just the rehab floor though! That's a plus. Oh but one of the ladies from last night's FluFest dinner table just heard that her friend from church is a resident on the assisted living floor here. Why not pay her a visit? And one of the other AL residents goes to physical therapy, too bad he sat next to Mrs. X yesterday and brought her flu back to his floor.

Speaking of visitors, it's Christmas time and here comes a local high school choir to perform some carols for the residents. No mandatory flu vaccine for any of them or their chaperones; who knows how many of them are carrying the flu right now? Hopefully not many, because most of them are shaking the residents' hands after the performance.

Every healthcare worker in that building can be vaccinated and flu-free, and half the patients in the building can still get any number of flu strains simply by passing it around by themselves and their visitors. There are just too many other variables and players to make it worth violating people's bodily autonomy and/or beliefs by forcing the flu vaccine.

pookyp, LPN · Jan 11, 2014

Feel free to search. Personally I'd like for research to be used as a complement to not a substitute for, common sense and independent critical thinking. Mrs. Smith comes into the rehab facility from the hospital. She's got the flu but doesn't know it yet. She joins 3 other people at the table in the dining room for dinner, sharing pics of her chihuahuas and a bit of flu virus to go along with it. Mr. Jones gets a visit from his daughter and grandkids. The youngest has been complaining of feeling tired, but won't start exhibiting flu symptoms until early the next morning. Hugs and kisses are exchanged, and so is the flu virus. Mr. Jones gets it, uses the bathroom in his room. The cleaning staff are doing their job, but obviously can't sanitize every room after every single use, so Mr. Jones' roommate uses the bathroom after him and picks it up. Mrs. X hasn't been feeling well, but doesn't tell anyone because she thinks it's just a cold and no big deal. She goes to the rehab gym for therapy and comes in contact with other patients, including Mr. Y, who then brings it back to his room and infects his roommate. The roommate, still asymptomatic, goes to the common room for a game of cards with several other guys, including Mr. Z. Mr. Z is feeling pretty good about his chances of staying healthy this season even despite being in constant close quarters with so many other people. After all, he got a flu shot a few weeks ago. But what's this? There are different strains of the flu, and the vaccine only protects against the few most common? Too bad the guy dealing the cards has one of the other strains. Now everyone else at the table does too. At least the flu is contained to just the rehab floor though! That's a plus. Oh but one of the ladies from last night's FluFest dinner table just heard that her friend from church is a resident on the assisted living floor here. Why not pay her a visit? And one of the other AL residents goes to physical therapy, too bad he sat next to Mrs. X yesterday and brought her flu back to his floor. Speaking of visitors, it's Christmas time and here comes a local high school choir to perform some carols for the residents. No mandatory flu vaccine for any of them or their chaperones; who knows how many of them are carrying the flu right now? Hopefully not many, because most of them are shaking the residents' hands after the performance. Every healthcare worker in that building can be vaccinated and flu-free, and half the patients in the building can still get any number of flu strains simply by passing it around by themselves and their visitors. There are just too many other variables and players to make it worth violating people's bodily autonomy and/or beliefs by forcing the flu vaccine.[/quote']
Very true. I've seen this happen a lot.

ixchel · Jan 11, 2014

Feel free to search. Personally I'd like for research to be used as a complement to not a substitute for, common sense and independent critical thinking. Mrs. Smith comes into the rehab facility from the hospital. She's got the flu but doesn't know it yet. She joins 3 other people at the table in the dining room for dinner, sharing pics of her chihuahuas and a bit of flu virus to go along with it. Mr. Jones gets a visit from his daughter and grandkids. The youngest has been complaining of feeling tired, but won't start exhibiting flu symptoms until early the next morning. Hugs and kisses are exchanged, and so is the flu virus. Mr. Jones gets it, uses the bathroom in his room. The cleaning staff are doing their job, but obviously can't sanitize every room after every single use, so Mr. Jones' roommate uses the bathroom after him and picks it up. Mrs. X hasn't been feeling well, but doesn't tell anyone because she thinks it's just a cold and no big deal. She goes to the rehab gym for therapy and comes in contact with other patients, including Mr. Y, who then brings it back to his room and infects his roommate. The roommate, still asymptomatic, goes to the common room for a game of cards with several other guys, including Mr. Z. Mr. Z is feeling pretty good about his chances of staying healthy this season even despite being in constant close quarters with so many other people. After all, he got a flu shot a few weeks ago. But what's this? There are different strains of the flu, and the vaccine only protects against the few most common? Too bad the guy dealing the cards has one of the other strains. Now everyone else at the table does too. At least the flu is contained to just the rehab floor though! That's a plus. Oh but one of the ladies from last night's FluFest dinner table just heard that her friend from church is a resident on the assisted living floor here. Why not pay her a visit? And one of the other AL residents goes to physical therapy, too bad he sat next to Mrs. X yesterday and brought her flu back to his floor. Speaking of visitors, it's Christmas time and here comes a local high school choir to perform some carols for the residents. No mandatory flu vaccine for any of them or their chaperones; who knows how many of them are carrying the flu right now? Hopefully not many, because most of them are shaking the residents' hands after the performance. Every healthcare worker in that building can be vaccinated and flu-free, and half the patients in the building can still get any number of flu strains simply by passing it around by themselves and their visitors. There are just too many other variables and players to make it worth violating people's bodily autonomy and/or beliefs by forcing the flu vaccine.[/quote']
First - in any decent debate, when you make a claim, be willing to furnish evidence. It is not up to the person you are debating to prove your point for you.
No, I won't look up evidence to back up your claim because your justification of it is absurd. I enjoy your decision that I am not an independent thinker, though. I love being sheeple. It's fulfilling, truly. (In case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm.)
Here is the way I, and all of the rest of the non-independent thinkers see it:
Let's say I graduate and I run off into the world with my first job in, oh, I don't know, an ED. I line up with the rest of the cattle for my flu vaccination. I go about my life, during that season getting exposed to everything you can imagine. I am vaccinated against the flu, and therefore don't contract it from my patients, who absolutely WILL come in with it. I also don't give the flu to patients who have not been vaccinated. Those patients include those with allergies, those with weakened immune systems, those with religious exceptions, and, of course, you. (You're welcome.) Then, when I go home, I don't give the flu to my children. I don't give the flu to my husband. I don't give the flu to my grandmother. I don't give the flu to my friend on chemo. I don't give the flu to the allergic friend who happens to be pregnant (look up that scary of schizophrenia in babies born to women who had the flu). Because I don't give it to them, they are less likely to give it to people they know. Because I don't give it to my patients, including you, you don't take it from my ED that day to your mom, kids, significant other, friends, whatever.
That is how vaccination works. Yes, it's a game of odds, but vaccination improves those odds. And just so we are clear, I'm not telling you this to change your mind about your own personal choice to not vaccinate. I come from a line of activists, my own mom being a long-time PETA employee. Being mindful of sources of animal cruelty is a beautiful thing and I wish the animal rights movement would get loud enough that we didn't have to avoid stuff like vaccines anymore because drug companies had a more humane way of doing things. What I AM telling you is that your thought process is flawed and I'm not sure that you understand how vaccination works and genuinely benefits populations as a whole. It's easier when the population feels outside yourself, but when you consider your sick grandma or your severely asthmatic child, you begin to consider on a deeper level that it's not about protecting the healthy ones. It's about protecting the ones that the flu can actually kill. We're in contact with those people, every day. Choose not to vaccinate yourself for your own reasons, but understand there are very valid and good reasons for mandatory vaccination in healthcare facilities.

allnurses Guide · Jan 11, 2014

Feel free to search. Personally I'd like for research to be used as a complement to, not a substitute for, common sense and independent critical thinking.
Mrs. Smith comes into the rehab facility from the hospital. She's got the flu but doesn't know it yet. She joins 3 other people at the table in the dining room for dinner, sharing pics of her chihuahuas and a bit of flu virus to go along with it.
Mr. Jones gets a visit from his daughter and grandkids. The youngest has been complaining of feeling tired, but won't start exhibiting flu symptoms until early the next morning. Hugs and kisses are exchanged, and so is the flu virus. Mr. Jones gets it, uses the bathroom in his room. The cleaning staff are doing their job, but obviously can't sanitize every room after every single use, so Mr. Jones' roommate uses the bathroom after him and picks it up.
Mrs. X hasn't been feeling well, but doesn't tell anyone because she thinks it's just a cold and no big deal. She goes to the rehab gym for therapy and comes in contact with other patients, including Mr. Y, who then brings it back to his room and infects his roommate.
The roommate, still asymptomatic, goes to the common room for a game of cards with several other guys, including Mr. Z. Mr. Z is feeling pretty good about his chances of staying healthy this season even despite being in constant close quarters with so many other people. After all, he got a flu shot a few weeks ago. But what's this? There are different strains of the flu, and the vaccine only protects against the few most common? Too bad the guy dealing the cards has one of the other strains. Now everyone else at the table does too.
At least the flu is contained to just the rehab floor though! That's a plus. Oh but one of the ladies from last night's FluFest dinner table just heard that her friend from church is a resident on the assisted living floor here. Why not pay her a visit? And one of the other AL residents goes to physical therapy, too bad he sat next to Mrs. X yesterday and brought her flu back to his floor.
Speaking of visitors, it's Christmas time and here comes a local high school choir to perform some carols for the residents. No mandatory flu vaccine for any of them or their chaperones; who knows how many of them are carrying the flu right now? Hopefully not many, because most of them are shaking the residents' hands after the performance.
Every healthcare worker in that building can be vaccinated and flu-free, and half the patients in the building can still get any number of flu strains simply by passing it around by themselves and their visitors. There are just too many other variables and players to make it worth violating people's bodily autonomy and/or beliefs by forcing the flu vaccine.

Things wrong with this scenario:

1. We have an inpatient care facility that doesn't follow CDC guidelines for its residents to be vaccinated. Considering that immunization rates will more than likely be tied to all facilities Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement rates the chance that any large portion of the inpatient facility population that is not immunized against the flu is going to be relatively small.

2. Not being vaccinated is more of generational issue with older adults usually in favor of it and younger adults who have never seen immunization preventable diseases having a higher percentage of anti-immunization people. In other words, there is unlikely to be any older adults not immunized.

3. Even if only the staff are immunized then the facility and the patients still win because they have trained healthcare workers to take care of them instead of being home sick with the flu.

A person's personal beliefs stop when they violate everyone's public health especially the people they are entrusted to take care of. We jailed Typhoid Mary for being a public health threat. We can certainly mandate that healthcare workers be vaccinated against influenza.

Editorial Team / Admin · Jan 11, 2014

We can't force patients to get vaccinated. It is required charting as well as a Core measure for CMS to offer and document either their refusal, previous vaccination status or an allergy excluding them. As RN's, we also have a right to refuse the vaccine, sign a declination and accept you'll have to wear a mask during peak outbreaks. I have horrible reactions to vaccines of any kind since my diagnosis of EBV, never had an issue previous. So, every year I decline and agree to wear a mask if mandated.

Not every facility offers the option to wear a mask. Mine only allows masks to be worn by those who had an approved medical reason not to be vaccinated. Anyone else who didn't get the flu shot is no longer employed.

To the thread in general, I really don't understand the whole "I'm being forced to get the flu shot that I don't agree with." No one is being forced to do anything. They are free to refuse the shot and the employer is free to determine they no longer meet the conditions of employment and terminate said employment. I said this on another thread, and I'll say it again: If one has such strong feelings regarding vaccinations or other job requirements, the onus is on them to find a facility whose mission/vision/conditions of employment match up with that.

msn10 · Jan 16, 2014

At my hospital, we don't make ANY exceptions -- not even for medical reasons, allergies, religion, etc. The protection of our patients comes first. If you are not willing or able to protect our patients, you cannot work here.

That is a really interesting dilemma. Even if someone medically cannot take the shot? One of our doctors had Guillian Barre syndrome and so he does not get the flu shot for obvious reasons, but he is a great doc and would hate to see him leave over an issue like that. I also no longer get the shot as I had 3 significant reactions to the shot in which the last one I was hospitalized. However, I never had the flu so for personal reasons I also don't feel I needed it. We both wear masks and gloves around all patients.

With the glut in nursing right now, I could see bedside nurses getting a shot even if they had allergies or medical issues just to keep their job. Wonder if there is a disability issues there?

allnurses Guide · Jan 17, 2014

That is a really interesting dilemma. Even if someone medically cannot take the shot? One of our doctors had Guillian Barre syndrome and so he does not get the flu shot for obvious reasons, but he is a great doc and would hate to see him leave over an issue like that. I also no longer get the shot as I had 3 significant reactions to the shot in which the last one I was hospitalized. However, I never had the flu so for personal reasons I also don't feel I needed it. We both wear masks and gloves around all patients.
With the glut in nursing right now, I could see bedside nurses getting a shot even if they had allergies or medical issues just to keep their job. Wonder if there is a disability issues there?

I would have to agree with this. I don't think the facility would be able to legally defend trying to mandate the influenza vaccine for employees with legitimate medical reasons not get it.

applesxoranges, BSN, RN · Jan 17, 2014

Seeing how few patients will wear masks and instead want to cough all over me as I am having a converation with them in triage, I'll take the flu shot if it increases my chances of not getting the flu. I don't want to wear the mask all the time when I am in triage and if I don't catch that the person with pain is really here for flu-symptoms quick enough, I could end up being coughed on before I sit down.

I'll wear a mask when I am sick.

NewYorkerGirl · Jan 19, 2014

I read that masks are only effective for 5 minutes. So all these policies about wearing a mask are pointless.

I understand that we work with vulnerable patients, but I still don't agree that we should be mandated to be vaccinated against anything. I'm one of those people who can't convert: my heb B vaccines don't work. Why should I keep getting this series of shots, which contain God only knows what awful chemicals, when it won't work for me? I'm worried I'll have to keep going through this every time I get a new job or apply for grad school. There should be a law to protect people like me, but big pharm likes all the money they make from people like me, so I'm sure that law will never occur.

I also don't want the flu shot. Shouldn't washing my hands and using standard protections like gloves and covering my cough be good enough to prevent infection? I think it's all a way to get $$$ for big pham. Wasn't the 2012 flu shot only 53% effective because the researchers guessed the wrong flu strain? Should I be forced to put something in my body that only has a 53% chance of working, considering it could also out me at risk for Guillian-Barre and contains god-knows-what? I'm a little scared of how easily so many of you are able to give up your bodily autonomy.

allnurses Guide · Jan 19, 2014

I read that masks are only effective for 5 minutes. So all these policies about wearing a mask are pointless.
I understand that we work with vulnerable patients, but I still don't agree that we should be mandated to be vaccinated against anything. I'm one of those people who can't convert: my heb B vaccines don't work. Why should I keep getting this series of shots, which contain God only knows what awful chemicals, when it won't work for me? I'm worried I'll have to keep going through this every time I get a new job or apply for grad school. There should be a law to protect people like me, but big pharm likes all the money they make from people like me, so I'm sure that law will never occur.
I also don't want the flu shot. Shouldn't washing my hands and using standard protections like gloves and covering my cough be good enough to prevent infection? I think it's all a way to get $$$ for big pham. Wasn't the 2012 flu shot only 53% effective because the researchers guessed the wrong flu strain? Should I be forced to put something in my body that only has a 53% chance of working, considering it could also out me at risk for Guillian-Barre and contains god-knows-what? I'm a little scared of how easily so many of you are able to give up your bodily autonomy.

1. Vaccines and Guillan Barre Syndrome do not have a strong causative association. GBS is also rare and happens at approximately the same incidence with or without vaccine administration. Vaccines and Guillain-Barré syndrome. [Drug Saf. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

2. You can be infective before symptoms develop. That and the route of infection with influenza and other vaccine preventable diseases make basic hygiene only slightly effective. It does not replace the need for the vaccine. "According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the flu virus can travel six feet on droplets from coughs, sneezes or talk." “I never get the flu.” Although some who are infected may not develop classic flu symptoms (fever, cough, muscle or body aches, sore throat,headache, fatigue, runny or stuffy nose), they can still transmit the virus to others at home, school or work. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/myths-about-the-flu-vaccine/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

3. All vaccine ingredients are clearly labeled. Most of the things that people object to with influenza vaccines can either be avoided (such as mercury by not not getting a vaccine from a multi-dose vial) or your body naturally produces anyways ( such as formaldehyde).

4, Flu vaccines are a low profit business and many pharmaceutical companies refuse to make them. Most and/or all pharmaceutical companies would refuse to make the majority of vaccines if it were not for the government vaccine compensation program d/t the low profitability.

5. Just another thought: Do you eat ocean fish? God only knows where they have been, what they have ate, and often many fish species have a normal heavy metal content.

WHO | What are some of the myths ? and facts ? about vaccination?