I'm considering applying to NP programs this fall, and I'm hoping to get some feedback.
As experienced NPs, did you find that your school's name/reputation was helpful in getting hired as a new grad? I'm sure that this topic has come up many times on AllNurses, but I've searched through a few forums and couldn't find it. I know that as an RN, school "name brands" are pretty useless. However, over the last several years, I do recall a few NPs on AN saying that attending a reputable NP school was beneficial in the hiring process; perhaps it's because those specific NPs were hired by MDs (vs. RNs, who are hired by other RNs), and "name branding" is a much bigger deal in medicine than it is in nursing.
I'm specifically interested in U-Penn's PNP program for a number of reasons: it's the only PNP I've found with a 'major'/concentration in my specialty of interest, it has rotations at one of the best children's hospitals in the world, it conducts classes in-person (though this may change post-COVID), and it can be completed in one year full-time. It also happens to be an expensive private school that is very well-ranked in both nursing and medicine (Top 3 in nursing, pediatric advanced practice nursing, and medicine). According to the website, the entire MSN can be completed for $55,000, although I'm not totally convinced.
Upon graduation, there's a very competitive new grad PNP fellowship (entirely unaffiliated with Penn) that I'd love to take part in. Unfortunately, given my nursing background (primarily in NICU, not PICU), I wouldn't be the strongest applicant. I'm hoping that attending a well-ranked, reputable NP program with a unique, pertinent concentration would make me a stronger applicant for the fellowship.
Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
On 1/24/2021 at 7:17 PM, djmatte said:
Nurses generally don’t consider school recognition because at the end of the day we all have to pass the same exam and we often look at the cost more realistically to what we are likely to get out of it. My original ADN was from a community college where I walked away paying $4500 a year. Even with my ADN, I made no different pay than any BSN trained nurses. And while the landscape has changed in 10 years in terms of BSN preference, bigger schools still aren’t a big factor and won’t command a higher salary. I used to shutter at the university of Michigan RN students I used to precept who were racking 20k a year in student debt for a license that was no higher than my own.
I don’t doubt for some, the NP side might carry weight in a world of Waldens where a Duke looks better. But I still see even those NPs landing jobs over others who might have a “better” school so still don’t believe at the end of the day the cost justifies the prestige. For a cohort that still has to show they are capable by means of a single licensing exam.
I think that because many of us started as bedside nurses have led to the opposing views on this matter. There are various paths for entry level RN jobs and true enough we all end up in the same role in the same hospital unit when we all start out. I also worked in Michigan early in my career and in that busy Med-Telemetry unit I was in, I witnessed how new UMich and Michigan State grads struggled worse than the ADN grads from the local community colleges.
I had a similar view at the time in that I never saw a real benefit to having a BSN degree (although I had one from the start) when hospitals are run by administrators who treat bedside nurses as commodity anyway. It seemed to me that the BSN grads from those schools had a more "idealized" concept of what nurses do vs the reality of under-staffing, poor working conditions, and lack of respect as a professional which was common in the unit we worked in. Sadly, some of those new nurses left the profession within months.
For us NP's, it is different. I am not claiming that we are the very top of the nursing food chain but that we operate on a different playing field where stakeholders are more closely intertwined (physicians, other types of providers) and the personal accountability for our own practice including our skills and competence can be a subject of scrutiny. I think we do owe it to ourselves to make sure that our educational path has more rigor.
I am not advocating for Ivy League education but would never discourage anyone from attending one if it works out for them financially. As another poster stated, they did not spend a fortune attending a top tier NP Program anyway. I do advocate that we be more selective with our NP Program choices because there are various public vs private options currently available for any situation we may have. I don't doubt that "Walden et al" grads get hired and do well in many anecdotal cases but choosing the "for profits" out of convenience or "easy way out" is only going to ruin our reputation in this game.
Specializes in Emergency, Cardiac, PAT/SPU, Urgent Care.
Just my anecdotal 2 cents - the school I graduated from (a known state school in the region) did not even come up in any of my NP position interviews. What did come up as a new grad were my clinical experiences and my previous nursing experience. Later interviews focused on my NP experience. Interestingly enough, I have precepted several UPenn NP students. You’d think they’d seek out their own grads as preceptors.
If finances are a concern, I’d go the less expensive state school route and focus on getting the best clinical experiences you can.
How am I a denier? Because a doubt the safety of a vaccine developed in <9 months?
If you have a problem with a vaccine being developed so quickly, perhaps as a nurse (and now NP), you have a duty to educate yourself about potentially why it was and could have been developed so quickly. Perhaps look into mRNA technology instead of just engaging in rank speculation?
FNPs are extraordinarily common nowadays with a slew of online and "degree mill" (less reputable and profit-hungry) options available. They are not at all selective so long as you pay them. This leads to a torrent of graduates who, I would assume given the lack of selectivity, probably shouldn't be NPs or were not trained very well. This 'torrent' of graduates drops starting salaries and lowers expectations of what NPs can do (more they can do, more billing, more money for employer, more compensation for NP). Also it leads to favouring PAs.
So given the above, differentiating oneself is a very good idea. A brick and mortar school is ideal. I specifically chose a very reputable, brick and mortar NP Program for this reason : to stand out. Many online programs have perhaps 1 or 2 periods where you go on-campus to "intensives" and learn the hands-on skills in a few days each time usually. My program has hands-on skills learning for each class! This is huge. I don't know about you but I can read a book all day long, but until I get to actually practice the skill it doesn't stick very well. That's why residencies/good preceptorships are key in skill development and competence acquisition.
In a world of thousands of degree mill-type programs, the name matters. It's common sense that if a prospective employer recognizes the school and it is of good repute that it puts you at an advantage. It communicates "quality" and "competence". Now this is all the more important with the massive FNP graduate pool we see nowadays.
Now, if this is NOT a possibility for whatever reason (I.e. you live far away from any schools and can't change physical locations), then there's other ways to differentiate oneself such as :
- Post-Graduate certificate programs (a common one is for FNPs who wish to specialize in Emergency Medicine to do the ENP post-grad programs that are offered by a good number of schools)
- Fellowships (many offered in many areas - not as much for FNPs but more so for acute care NPs in the hospitals)
In general doing an Acute Care NP may be better as there's far less graduating and many fellowship options available and growing.
CRNA is a good investment, even if you take 3 years off work and accrue say $400,000 in debt. You can make $400,000 as a CRNA if you play your cards right (I have CRNA friends who did just that as private contractors to hospitals) and thus easily pay it off).
Just some things to consider! Best of luck to you and feel free to ask questions. I have many close NP/CRNA friends and colleagues and have been researching this for some time.
It did for me! I went to Vanderbilt, and got a PNP fellowship interview, and several NP job interviews that were at least partially - some fully - because of where I went.
Now.. if I had to find a job in Nashville, that might have been a stretch due to the saturation level. But, thankfully I had the flexibility to move for the job that suited me best.
It matters. Doesn't have to be ivy leage or Hopkins/Duke but those names on a resume do draw attention.
Local state schools that are well regarded are also fine. They may not cause your application to pop out, but they will convey that you attended a likely reputable and rigorous program.
The only red flags I think are random fly by night online for-profits - they seem to morph and change names constantly, half the time the school doesn't even exist 10 years down the line, and there's no guarantee the program met standards.
Specializes in Emergency, Cardiac, PAT/SPU, Urgent Care.
You put two new NP grads up against each other for a job interview and I can pretty much guarantee you that the new NP grad from a local state school who has several years’ hospital-based RN experience in areas such as the ICU, ER, cardiac unit, etc. is going to stand out way more than the Ivy League NP grad whose only RN experience was clinicals in their BSN program.
The only way that school recognition is going to help in the NP field is if both new grads have little to no RN experience.
You put two new NP grads up against each other for a job interview and I can pretty much guarantee you that the new NP grad from a local state school who has several years’ hospital-based RN experience in areas such as the ICU, ER, cardiac unit, etc. is going to stand out way more than the Ivy League NP grad whose only RN experience was clinicals in their BSN program.
The only way that school recognition is going to help in the NP field is if both new grads have little to no RN experience.
This really isn't necessarily true. In some cases, sure - a school can never "make up" for an inferior student out of the gate. But many ivy league/top NP school graduates are driven and science minded. Many did their undergrad degrees in Chemistry or bio and took advanced science courses that give them backgrounds similar to pre-Med preparation. That's the kind of preparation that's helpful for advanced pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. In addition just having that school on a resume can get your foot in the door!
Specializes in Emergency, Cardiac, PAT/SPU, Urgent Care.
Sure, those classes are helpful for your NP Program, but your future employer is not going to ask for a transcript. I would also hope that NP students, no matter which school they attend, are “driven and science-minded.” You have to be in order to succeed as a competent NP. Just FYI, if the NP Program is accredited by CCNE then the blueprint for the NP programs will not vary much from school to school. I’ve precepted several NP students over the years and I can honestly tell you that I’d never know where they went to school by how they practiced. What I could tell is who had extensive RN experience vs who did not.
You just can’t argue that where you went to school will be considered more important to a future employer than what kind of previous nursing and clinical experience you have. Again, maybe as a new grad on equal playing ground, yes, it might help you get your foot in the door - but someone who has strong RN experience at a level 1 trauma hospital will most likely get the position over an Ivy League grad who has only done nursing clinicals in their RN program. New NP grads with no previous RN working experience will have a much steeper learning curve the first several months. Think about it, NP schools were formed initially to build off of what experienced nurses learned on the job. That’s why they don’t require nearly as many clinical hours as PA programs, for example.
My advice - and take it or leave it - don’t feel like you have to put out an enormous amount of money for a prestigious institution if you can’t really afford it. An accredited state brick and mortar program will be just fine. Just seek out strong clinical experiences and work as an RN for a few years before you graduate as an NP and you will find a job.
Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
I have no beef with the question about who the best candidate for an NP career is. In fact, I think if anything NP programs welcome non-traditional students from diverse backgrounds and that can only be a good thing. However I do have a problem with this statement:
32 minutes ago, Spacklehead said:
Just FYI, if the NP Program is accredited by CCNE then the blueprint for the NP programs will not vary much from school to school. I’ve precepted several NP students over the years and I can honestly tell you that I’d never know where they went to school by how they practiced. What I could tell is who had extensive RN experience vs who did not.
I think CCNE is such a low bar for quality. I've heard of a program here and there that has lost accreditation from them but the vast majority of nursing schools with any one or two NP programs have been accredited without question. The minimum requirement for NP education is the 3 P's (Physical Assessment, Patho, and Pharm), followed by a specialized clinical sequence geared towards the specialty track. Those are things any program can whip up a number of syllabi for and say they offer them whether online or in person.
NP programs don't even have to build resources for a physical healthcare campus location with enough providers to ensure standardized clinical rotations are offered to every student. That's because in a lot of cases, students have to secure their own clinical rotations sometimes under the guise of "these are adult learners, they should know how to network". Well, that just benefits a subset of students who are either able to assess the quality of their clinical instruction on their own or those willing to skate by with substandard clinicals just to graduate and get certified.
Our education can range so widely from such "podunk" operations to ones that get serious in making sure our future NP's are well prepapred in a structured manner. Something or someone need to intervene and resolve these issues.
Specializes in Emergency, Cardiac, PAT/SPU, Urgent Care.
That is the reason I said to obtain strong clinical experiences. They will make a huge difference with finding a job. I was lucky in that my program, a state school, had a dedicated person who arranged our clinical experiences.
nursetim, NP
493 Posts
So, instead of taking this to PMs and discussing this like adults. You feel compelled to go all Donald Sutherland from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.