If we make BSN the entry level degree, we should be paid more

Nurses Activism

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First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.

There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.

I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.

Thoughts?

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
*** We disagree. Have you ever worked as a bedside RN?

I have. As a new grad at a major academic hospital I made 82k a year, pretty good salary for a "new grad".

But again, my personal opinion matters little. Personal assaults don't prove any points in a larger debate about nursing's future.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
As you as a nurses, are as well. But I think as nurses...our pay does not commiserate with what nurses are responsible for and I have to disagree with you that nurses have little liability. We all bear liability for our actions....bedside nurse or FNP[/quote']

So APN vs RN vs MD vs CNA should pay the same in liability insurance?

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I have. As a new grad at a major academic hospital I made 82k a year, pretty good salary for a "new grad".

*** Wow! I agree. That is very good new grad pay. In my area new grads start out at less than $20 an hour.

But again, my personal opinion matters little. Personal assaults don't prove any points in a larger debate about nursing's future

*** Well we can agree on that. Seems a little off topic given the total lack of such assaults in this discussion, but whatever.

Please would the people who are insisting that evidence exists to prove that acute care nursing staff with more BSN trained nurses have better patient outcomes post a link to their evidence. It is not enough to say "major studies exist" etc. What specific recent studies are you referring to? Some studies have already been debated on AN. Please share with all of us here. Then we can all take the opportunity to evaluate the evidence. And please don't ask us to provide studies that refute the evidence you are insisting exists before you have even told us which specific study/studies you are referring to.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
*** Wow! I agree. That is very good new grad pay. In my area new grads start out at less than $20 an hour. *** Well we can agree on that. Seems a little off topic given the total lack of such assaults in this discussion but whatever.[/quote']

I worked hard for the 82k, I worked nights and weekends and holidays, I shouldered a great deal of responsibility. But I made good money for it, plenty to support my family and pay my school bills, which is all that really matters. In fact I took a pay cut from my previous career but it was well worth the change for me. It's really not about the money for me and I don't want it to seem that way. I think nurses have a great job from pay to public respect to personal satisfaction.

Cost of living aside, $20/hr seems brutally low. Most LTC new grads here start in the low to mid 30s. Perhaps I am biased by living in a high cost of living locale.

As far as my comment about personal assaults, if the previous question about my experience as an RN was something non-personal, enlighten me

as to how it relates to the global issue at hand?

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

Excuse my crankiness for the night; I feel I'm laying on a soapbox; but I want to share. :cheeky:

My take is nurses need to get paid more; if anything, there needs to be a standard of pay for nurses; plus inclusion of compensation for being certified, educators/preceptors, and management/leadership; Research/theory tiers.

Granted, in areas, COLA is applied; however, nursing has not had a good income curve with the increasing COLA (as most occupations due to the economy, this not exclusive to nursing); however, there are nurses making less than 20 bucks in one place, yet in other areas nurses are making 30 and above in some places; so there is a varying degree of "a lot of money", but for many making almost 30 bucks from 10 buck IS a lot of money; at least is was when the economy was in pace with the COLA; that is not the case anymore. :no:

As far as nursing having one entry for practice; for RNs, so be it; however, I think there does need to be a more thorough oversight and control on educational programs; I am also for keeping LPNs as well; with nurse run clinics being a hot topic in my area and the expansion of LPN, RN, and APNs in my state, the domination of nursing alleviating doctors who otherwise have not flocked to primary care or the risk of individuals with complex health histories to have missed or delayed care; the nursing community in my area is giving access in being ever present in managing our communities, whether it be Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary care.

I also think that Nurse Educators, whether they are Clinical and Community educators should be paid more as well. Even with the CMS putting more emphasis of skilled care and nursing outcomes, the ever presence of nursing outcomes is where the money should be-in our pockets; unfortunately the "bottom line business model", IMHO, continues to take it from us...I believe another poster either in this thread or another quoted, even Pat Benner, my favorite nursing theorist has explained; unless we sit down and iron out our profession, we will continue to get the short end of the stick...there a few states that operate on a very broad scope for all areas of licensed nursing; I rather each state have the same opportunities as the state I live in; as well as the return on investment in getting an education-although this economic issue isn't exclusive to nursing either, but since we are on a nursing website, it's worth mentioning. ;)

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
What specific recent studies are you referring to?

Sorry I did assume most actively debating this subject would have a general idea of the landmark studies on the topic.

I would be happy to provide studies for you to read. Would you like the most recent or the major landmark studies? US-based or international?

Sorry I did assume most actively debating this subject would have a general idea of the landmark studies on the topic.

I would be happy to provide studies for you to read. Would you like the most recent or the major landmark studies? US-based or international?

Post for all of us here a link to the study you consider most relevant.

*** One thing I never hear addressed. When one advocates for a single entry point to nursing does that mean doing away with the DE MSN programs as well as the ADN & diploma programs? I would assume so otherwise we would hardly have a single point of entry.

*** Good point!

At least here in NYS there is only one diploma program and it is located way upstate somewhere. The rest either went under or converted to offering ADN.

Hospital based diploma programs began to fade from favour as ADN programs became more widespread. Many facilities simply preferred college educated nurses over those with a diploma. Besides the reduced demand running a hospital affiliated program became financially draining on many hospitals as reimbursements changed and or were cut. Here in NYC New York Hospital/Cornell had a nationwide famous school. But insurance companies decided they were no longer going to pay for "nursing education" and that began the end.

Specializes in LTC, assisted living, med-surg, psych.
I think we need to get to one level of entry education because I am tired of these discussions. smiley_beat_dead_horse2.gif

I don't believe a BSN nurse should get paid more than ADN/ASN diploma grad.....they are doing the same job they should get the same pay. Where is someone paid because of the amount of debt they have? That argument makes no sense...equitable pay for equitable work.

I have heard this for 35 years....this is the closet I have seen it become a reality and it's due to the plethora of nursing grads flooding the market and unregulated new, mostly for profit, 2 year schools pumping out as many grads as they can to make a dollar.

As far as the studies out there .....they are performed by the very regulating organizations that are pushing this agenda....data can be manipulated to reflect your desired out come.

So all of the ADN/diploma grads that have worked at the bedside during this incredible time of growth and advancement in medicine in the last 30 years have no value? and can't possibly have good outcomes because they don't have a BSN? I happen to disagree.

Who do you think cared for all of these patients the last 35 years? I can tell you it wasn't a BSN dominated nursing work force.

If I could "Like" this post 1,000 times, I would. BRAVO!!!!

This thread is interesting, and many have brought up good food for thought.

Does anyone have any knowledge of statistical studies of RN wages over the last twenty years (by state and/or region)?

One thing that I keep seeing on AN, are salaries that are often hovering around only three or so dollars more/hr. to what I made as a newish grad (ADN) 20 years ago. And that was in one of the lowest paying states in the nation (49th, to be exact, for nurse salaries). Of course, I'm only speaking in anecdotal terms here, based on general observations.

I'd be willing to bet that a person good with numbers could prove that that's not merely wage stagnation, it's regressive.

And now "they" want BSN's for similar dollars/hr. where those same dollars are worth far less than two decades ago? And just who the hell are "they" anyway? Educational institutions? (They do receive funding dollars to expand nursing programs).

Interestingly, community colleges now stand poised to implement BSN programs (of course, they're getting funding to implement these programs). Yes, a BSN at a community college. In my state, it's already happening.

We're being had.

I'm finishing my BSN as I type, but the cost may well be > benefit.

Specializes in Critical Care.
Have we given employers BSN education for free? Or have employers just realized that nursing was one of the best paid fields for education level and we are now seeing the market simply correct itself? The 2013 Georgetown report was fairly compelling with nursing being in the top 5 new graduate jobs in regard to pay at the BA/BS level.

So you're arguing Nurses are overpaid?

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