If we make BSN the entry level degree, we should be paid more

Nurses Activism

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First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.

There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.

I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.

Thoughts?

Specializes in Pediatrics, High-Risk L&D, Antepartum, L.

Where I was working you could climb a ladder to get paid more. Having a certain number of credits to your BSN or having your BSN enabled you to challenge to the next level. BUT...you also had to so a number of other things on the list to challenge. It was ridiculous. For example...be a preceptor. Well to be a preceptor you had to take a class and there needed to be people to precept. Well the hospital had a hiring freeze...no precepting. So having your BSN enabled you to climb a ladder and get a % added to your pay but you had to do everything on the list...oh and don't get enough precepting hours in one year and they take that "raise" away. So you didn't get more money just for the BSN but you needed it to challenge...and get money they could take away.

So where I worked...one could argue the BSN got paid more but she wasn't guaranteed that pay and she needed to do other things to get it.

I personally feel hospital based diploma programs are the way to go to obtain and RN. I do think the BSN is necessary...but mainly because that's what hospitals are requiring. If somebody wants to just stay at the bedside...I see no reason to push the BSN.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
They put a hold on BSN's due to increased orientation/clinical training costs.

Your hospital was actively hiring new-grad ADNs but had a hold on BSN hiring? For the same jobs?

The inference is that BSNs require more training and orientation than ADNs require? What hospital is this?

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
This can be deceiving for pay since Magnet level hospitals are trying to restructure their pay scales. There also fewer ADNs at some steps and units so you won't notice a differential since the pay has already been adjusted to reflect the BSN. In hospitals with a large number of ADNs, unions and employers will tend to cater to the lowest denominator. For the union it keeps the majority in that hospital happy and for the hospital it may save money by paying for the lessor education level if BSNs are the minority. There may be enough ADNs to keep the BSNs quiet and set the pace for the hospital.

Eventually we will see more salary surveys for the Magnet vs non Magnet hospitals. Those will be more interesting.

I have found in my area the Union facilities are the ones with the greatest pay...but the MNA is a strong pro-nurse bargaining body.

I haven't found Magnet facilities all that aggressive in pay differentials for education. Nor were they highest paying in my area. They are slightly more aggressive in certification pay.

I think that there needs to a be a single entry into nursing to stop this discussion. I don't think differential pay should be because of education at entry level....it does nothing but create more controversy and animosity. I think one should be compensated based on experience and a new grad, is a new grad, is a new grad....whether one is a ADN or BSN...neither is prepared to be independent nurse upon graduation.

Specializes in CCM, PHN.
In 35 years I have not seen this...EVER and I have worked in many places. What is "significantly" less?
Well after 35 years of baloney, I am glad change is finally happening! In every other profession, more education = more $. Nursing should be no exception. ADNs in my company make $3-$4 less per hour than BSNs. BSNs are also salaried rather than clock punchers, and are eligible for reimbursement for specialty certifications and management training. Currently ADNs are eligible for more tuition reimbursement than BSNs, but so few have shown interest in going back to school that they may shift that allocation to the BSNs. It seems the ADNs are too occupied with being resentful about their own choice to have less education to go pursue any, even if part of it is paid for. Oh well. What a shame, because so many ADNs are AMAZING nurses who refuse to recognize their own potential!
Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
Well after 35 years of baloney, I am glad change is finally happening! In every other profession, more education = more $. Nursing should be no exception. ADNs in my company make $3-$4 less per hour than BSNs. BSNs are also salaried rather than clock punchers, and are eligible for reimbursement for specialty certifications and management training. Currently ADNs are eligible for more tuition reimbursement than BSNs, but so few have shown interest in going back to school that they may shift that allocation to the BSNs. It seems the ADNs are too occupied with being resentful about their own choice to have less education to go pursue any, even if part of it is paid for. Oh well. What a shame, because so many ADNs are AMAZING nurses who refuse to recognize their own potential!

This BSN (almost MSN) would rather be a clock puncher than salaried- I'd miss out on a lot of money from overtime and call back time. Salaried nurses in my facility are not eligible for pay for either of those whether they work more than 40 hours or not.

Specializes in LTC, Psych, M/S.

So I would be interested to know y'all's opinions on all these online BSN programs that you see advertisements for all over the internet? I am going to start looking into them.

However, I have not worked in acute care for 5 years. I have no interest in becoming a manager. Will it make any difference for me? I would like to try acute care again but I am afraid that since I have been out so long they simply won't consider me even with BSN - thereby making it a total waste.

And in choosing BSN programs what kind of "standard" should I be looking for? I am afraid of getting into a "diploma mill."

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

@hope3456, there are plenty of brick and mortar schools that have online programs-just find those particular programs and you will be on your way...I don't know what area you are in, but start at your local universities. :yes:

When I return to school for graduate work; it will be online; with exception of lab and clinical time. I have NO desire to be in a classroom anymore. :no:

Specializes in CCM, PHN.
This BSN (almost MSN) would rather be a clock puncher than salaried- I'd miss out on a lot of money from overtime and call back time. Salaried nurses in my facility are not eligible for pay for either of those whether they work more than 40 hours or not.

I make more now salaried than I did as a clock punching BSN, even with overtime. I also come and go within reason, as long as I'm putting in my 8 hours a day and getting the job done. I can duck out for a doctor or dental appt. or take a little longer lunch, run errands or take care of personal business. Sometimes I come & leave early, sometimes come & leave late. It's nice to have that kind of freedom and not be chained to a Kronos or time clock.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
The US does NOT require a BSN. I provided you references for the educational levels for nurses in other countries. Couple that with the US educational system for students and you should have a good picture. You didn't believe other countries required higher education. I provided you with the sources which stated they did. What exactly are you looking for?

Evidence that supports your claim that US nursing is lagging behind other countries. Simply repeating the well known fact that some countries require a BSN is NOT evidence that American's are "lagging" behind. Lets see some evidence that our nurses education is lagging. Not just letters behind their names being different.

Your posts are also over the place. The discussion at one point was about ADNs and other countries to which you said you got a NZ license. You made it sound like an ADN is no barrier to getting a license in another country.

It wasn't. At the time I applied for and got my NZ license I did not have a BSN. I didn't get it until years later.

I don't know what country you are a citizen in either or even where you got your education or how you got a work visa for another country.

I was educated in several different countries. I went to 15 different schools between 1st and 12th grade in I am not even sure how many countries. My father was a career Marine who, during that part of my life, served as an embassy guard. I got my nursing education in the USA. I hold dual citizenship and do not need a work visa to work in USA, New Zealand, Australia and several other Common Wealth countries.

At one point you said you didn't work in NZ and then you post about being there for many years working in ICU.

The problem here is you are engaging in wishful reading. Try reading what I have written, rather than what you wish I had wrote to facilitate your argument. I never said I didn't work in New Zealand. I told you at least twice that I did.

Unions and employers also must cater to the lowest denominator.

Employers must cater to the lowest common denominator? What is your evidence they do so? All the "BSN preferred" and "BSN required" tags on hospital job listings? I don't know about unions.

Before standards/scope/wages can be raised more people have to be at the higher level of education which the easiest way to demonstrate that is through a BSN.

Where is the money going to come from to pay nurses with BSNs a higher wage? A BSN does not allow a RN to practice in a way that brings more money into the hospital. As I supposed to take your word for it that nurses will get paid more if we all had BSNs? Where is the evidence? Why do you think it will happen to nurses when it hasn't happened for the other professions who now require a higher degree for entry?

The surveys are out there indicating job satisfaction is higher in Magnet hospitals or hospitals which promote the BSN for entry into a job. But, because some ADNs don't want change, many hospitals and unions (which control wages) will cater to the ADN and probably use the same arguments you have that a "BSN" is not education and means nothing.

Unions control wages? There is only one union hospital in my state, very far from where I live. I certainly do not think they "control" wages. If there did new grads with a BSN would not be starting out at $20 and hour like they do. Magnet is over. The better hospitals are not doing it anymore. It never meant anything like it claimed it did anyway. Among my circle of critical care/transport/ER nurse friends "Magnet" stands for crappy working conditions.

Where have you been for the past 20 years? How can you not say medicine is not advancing?

Ah, here we have an excellent example of your wishful reading. Of course I never said medicine is not advancing. I am not an idiot. I am aware of what is happening in my own field, more so that you as has been demonstrated. Once again try reading what I have written, rather than what you wish I wrote.

Ever hear of Evidence Based Medicine? Nursing directed protocols? Have you seen all the new medications, treatments and technology?

Naturally.

You have failed to read or make yourself familiar in any way with what is happening in nursing.

(chuckle, chuckle) I know very well what is happening. Wasn't it you that had to have some rather simple and well known things explained to them, like requirements for NPs?

You have a strong opinion against the BSN even though you say you hold the degree.

I am against making the BSN required for entry to practice. I am against requiring nurses to increase their investment without increased compensation. I differentiate between education and simply having letters behind one's name.

You are probably the most negative person whose posts I have read to hold back the BSNs from increasing in pay and scope at some hospitals.

Please show evidence that requiring a BSN will result in higher pay and increased scope of practice for nurses. How is it going to do that when nursing schools, including BSN programs, are turning out new grads who are essentially helpless without a large investment in training and education by their employer.

As long as you and others like you keep bashing the BSN degree, nothing will change where you are.

I haven't bashed the BSN degree. I believe that nursing education needs a major revamp, but BSN programs are not alone in this. I know that ADN and BSN nursing education is pretty much the same and that BSN grads are not more competent and are not qualified to do anything ADNs are not. I see this everyday in my roll as RRT RN and instructor in the nurse residency program.

I guess you believe the degree you have has failed you

LOL! You are really not very good at guessing. I have two great jobs, a full time as rapid response RN, and a part time where I do a wide variety of things from teach in the critical care nurse residency. to working transport, to ICU nursing. I make a lot of money (well over $100K not counting OT), have more autonomy than most any other RN and thoroughly enjoy my jobs. My BSN had nothing to do with the great position I find myself in now. I obtained everything I have before I got the BSN.

but like I stated before, some of the responsibility also falls to the individual. If the BSN degree has failed you, I believe you have no one to blame but yourself and your attitude.

Amusing, but inaccurate.

Specializes in Just starting out in a Nursing Home..

I would imagine that experience would matter more. I am a C.N.A getting my BSRN but I tell you I am a little confused because I transferred from a community college to a state college so all of my credits are in an entirely different course of study. So although I will graduate with my Bachelors they other area's you learn in well really wouldn't apply. I mean it may give you more managerial capabilities but I don't think it should really matter. Personal pref.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Well after 35 years of baloney, I am glad change is finally happening! In every other profession, more education = more $!

What is the evidence for this? There has not be a corresponding increase in pay or scope of practice for physical therapists and pharmacists now that they are required to have doctorates.

I would have to see evidence before I believe that nurse employers are going to increase nurses pay if we all have a BSN. I would like to know what will make us different than the other professions.

Evidence that supports your claim that US nursing is lagging behind other countries. Simply repeating the well known fact that some countries require a BSN is NOT evidence that American's are "lagging" behind. Lets see some evidence that our nurses education is lagging. Not just letters behind their names being different.

It wasn't. At the time I applied for and got my NZ license I did not have a BSN. I didn't get it until years later.

I was educated in several different countries. I went to 15 different schools between 1st and 12th grade in I am not even sure how many countries. My father was a career Marine who, during that part of my life, served as an embassy guard. I got my nursing education in the USA. I hold dual citizenship and do not need a work visa to work in USA, New Zealand, Australia and several other Common Wealth countries.

The problem here is you are engaging in wishful reading. Try reading what I have written, rather than what you wish I had wrote to facilitate your argument. I never said I didn't work in New Zealand. I told you at least twice that I did.

Employers must cater to the lowest common denominator? What is your evidence they do so? All the "BSN preferred" and "BSN required" tags on hospital job listings? I don't know about unions.

Where is the money going to come from to pay nurses with BSNs a higher wage? A BSN does not allow a RN to practice in a way that brings more money into the hospital. As I supposed to take your word for it that nurses will get paid more if we all had BSNs? Where is the evidence? Why do you think it will happen to nurses when it hasn't happened for the other professions who now require a higher degree for entry?

Unions control wages? There is only one union hospital in my state, very far from where I live. I certainly do not think they "control" wages. If there did new grads with a BSN would not be starting out at $20 and hour like they do. Magnet is over. The better hospitals are not doing it anymore. It never meant anything like it claimed it did anyway. Among my circle of critical care/transport/ER nurse friends "Magnet" stands for crappy working conditions.

Ah, here we have an excellent example of your wishful reading. Of course I never said medicine is not advancing. I am not an idiot. I am aware of what is happening in my own field, more so that you as has been demonstrated. Once again try reading what I have written, rather than what you wish I wrote.

Naturally.

(chuckle, chuckle) I know very well what is happening. Wasn't it you that had to have some rather simple and well known things explained to them, like requirements for NPs?

I am against making the BSN required for entry to practice. I am against requiring nurses to increase their investment without increased compensation. I differentiate between education and simply having letters behind one's name.

Please show evidence that requiring a BSN will result in higher pay and increased scope of practice for nurses. How is it going to do that when nursing schools, including BSN programs, are turning out new grads who are essentially helpless without a large investment in training and education by their employer.

I haven't bashed the BSN degree. I believe that nursing education needs a major revamp, but BSN programs are not alone in this. I know that ADN and BSN nursing education is pretty much the same and that BSN grads are not more competent and are not qualified to do anything ADNs are not. I see this everyday in my roll as RRT RN and instructor in the nurse residency program.

LOL! You are really not very good at guessing. I have two great jobs, a full time as rapid response RN, and a part time where I do a wide variety of things from teach in the critical care nurse residency. to working transport, to ICU nursing. I make a lot of money (well over $100K not counting OT), have more autonomy than most any other RN and thoroughly enjoy my jobs. My BSN had nothing to do with the great position I find myself in now. I obtained everything I have before I got the BSN.

Amusing, but inaccurate.

Your posts are amusing but difficult to follow. You flip flop on your history and contradict yourself in your own personal timeline.

ADN does not equal BSN.

Your school allowed you to be an RN instructor with no BSN?

You are also an RRT? Is that Respiratory Therapist? Are you a degreed RT or a grandfathered Tech? Are you also against RTs advancing their education? Do you work as an RT or RN?

$100,000 is nothing to brag about today especially if it takes two jobs to make that much. To those of us who have work in Massachusetts, New York and California, $100,000 is poverty or minimum wage to a San Francisco RN.

You just can not seem to accept change. You might have been able to get a job doing ICU and transport with just an ADN at one time or maybe in your area but standards change. Yes a specialty team can say BSN required and not just preferred. If you don't have the degree, you don't make the team and enjoy all the things in a broader scope of practice. I don't need to post studies for that. You can just go to the flight and NICU section and read the posts there.

There is also no nursing shortage. Things will probably get worse in health care before they get better. If you want to be competitive in the job market, you need to be prepared. If you want to be in nursing for the long haul, you need to take the advice of those involved in the future planning of nursing. Calling Magnet status crap and criticizing anyone with a BSN as all being the same is rather silly on your part. You must live in a very isolated area where you can brag about your money and autonomy. I guess no one has told you that Rapid Response teams are everywhere in the US now and the RNs do have a lot of autonomy on those teams. You are not unique. But, you are a very negative person when it comes to advancing nursing as a profession. I would genuinely hate to work with someone as disgruntled with their work environment and who thinks so little of BSN degreed RNs as you and Muno.

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