If we make BSN the entry level degree, we should be paid more

Nurses Activism

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First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.

There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.

I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.

Thoughts?

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Being trialed as tasks and reading to learn more about the advances might also be two very different things. How many times have you said or heard said, "can't tell you why", "don't know how it works but it works", "this is how we always do it", "because the protocol or policy says so" or "the doctor ordered it"? How many articles have been placed on a bulletin board or report table by educators or a physician and sit there untouched? These are things I have seen in the past. Now, with BSN RN unit, we actively seek out new journal articles to read and are read. We actively participate in policy implementation of new equipment. We now have more RNs participating in the research and initiating projects themselves. The attitude of just doing something because you were told to or that is the way it always has been done needs to change. BSN grads are now coming into the workforce seeking answers by asking questions which sometimes irritates the older ADNs who may perceive this as being undereducated rather than taking an initiative in their own learning process. I remember when the diploma nursing students living in residence "doing as told". They were very valuable at the bedside but also had limitations and sometimes seen as very task focused to the point of not seeing the broader picture.

I have great respect for those who started as diploma nurses and then went on for MSNs and PhDs. to educate. They were able to blend both worlds.

I beg your pardon? Just where did you get the assumption that we we uninformed about pathophysiology, lacked inciative, didn't participate in policy development and implimentation and didn't see the broader picture? I opened an open heart program and cath lab with a ASN degree. I couldn't disagree with you more.

Nurses where I worked we not allowed by the MD's to not know. We were not allowed to say the doctor ordered it. I was surrounded by giving physicians that wanted intellegent functional nurses caring for their patients. We took care of open hearts in a non academic setting and didn't have hospitalists and intensivists... residents and fellow who did the thinking for us.

I'm normally not easily annoyed but to say that the nurses in the past were little yes robots who did what they were told with no intelligence or insight is insulting. Who do you think came up with the evidence and protocols you call EBM now. You don't think nurses did research in the old days? Do you think only BSN grads ask questions?

Let's be real honest....... the older nurses regardless of their degree probably find the disrespect shown to them by the new and self appointed keepers of higher education self indulgent and disrespectful.....and are insulted by the implication that they, the experienced staff, are ill informed, unintelligent, uneducated taskmasters.

I agreed with you...... until right now.

Specializes in Critical Care.
Your hospital was actively hiring new-grad ADNs but had a hold on BSN hiring? For the same jobs?

The inference is that BSNs require more training and orientation than ADNs require? What hospital is this?

It wasn't just one hospital it was system-wide; 7 hospitals in 4 states. Our Education departments were in "flux", although that was probably more of a cover for the fact that we just wanted to save some money. We were finding our ADN new hires were requiring a little over a month in orientation and BSN grads were requiring closer to 3.

I don't disagree it was shortsighted, since BSN's have the necessary foundation and will easily catch up, they just didn't get the same amount of independent clinical opportunities.

We've since gotten our ed departments back up to full strength and no longer have a degree preference, but still haven't swung the other way to preferring BSN's over ADN's.

Specializes in Critical Care.
What do you believe the education level for teachers should be? A 6 month certificate? Did you know that the salaries of teachers depend on tax base and public funding through tax amendments? I bet you voted "NO" on any amendment to support education in your area.

My wife is a teacher, my mother was a teacher, and my decision on which college to go to out of high school was based on pursuing an Ed degree, so no I have nothing against teachers I vote yes on every levy that comes along, although teachers salaries aren't typically determined by levies, state legislatures determine teachers salaries and appropriate funding for teachers' pay.

Why are you suggesting that the BSN offer only half the clinical experience? That is a ridiculous suggestion. BSN programs do not decrease clinical experience. Some even offer more hours and the BSN also gives the opportunity for externships and residencies which some are only available to BSN grads. Please provide links that BSN programs are cutting their clinical hours in half.

Clinical opportunities in areas with BSN programs are often already saturated. Doubling the number of students competing for the same clinical opportunities would create a situation with half the opportunity per student.

The 120 hours which you previously stated is the credit hours for a BSN using the semester system, not quarter. This is all very easy to look up and it would be to your benefit if you are on any "committee".

I was referencing a quarter system.

You say you are on committees for ADNs to articulate into a BSN program. Yet, you show NO support for BSNs. You present the BSN grads as needing more orientation than ADN because you claim they do not have clinical experience. You really seem to have a problem with BSN grads which sounds more personal than factual. I will tell you the same as I told PMFB. If you believe the BSN degree has failed you, maybe you should take into account that your own attitude is largely to blame.

I have no problem with BSN grads, and I have no problem with ADN grads. BSN was the route I chose but I'm not so arrogant to believe it is the only route that works.

I fully support the need for a BSN equivalent education, particularly when provided with post-program ongoing education. There is a lot of potential in the idea of a mandatory RN-BSN type program a few years out from graduation, but not just for ADN grads. I believe ADN programs should become essentially satellite BSN programs, but that Nursing education will fail miserably if we attempt to consolidate it or weed out the diverse life experience backgrounds that ADN grads bring to Nursing.

I beg your pardon? Just where did you get the assumption that we we uninformed about pathophysiology, lacked inciative, didn't participate in policy development and implimentation and didn't see the broader picture? I opened an open heart program and cath lab with a ASN degree. I couldn't disagree with you more.

Nurses where I worked we not allowed by the MD's to not know. We were not allowed to say the doctor ordered it. I was surrounded by giving physicians that wanted intellegent functional nurses caring for their patients. We took care of open hearts in a non academic setting and didn't have hospitalists and intensivists... residents and fellow who did the thinking for us.

I'm normally not easily annoyed but to say that the nurses in the past were little yes robots who did what they were told with no intelligence or insight is insulting. Who do you think came up with the evidence and protocols you call EBM now. You don't think nurses did research in the old days? Do you think only BSN grads ask questions?

Let's be real honest....... the older nurses regardless of their degree probably find the disrespect shown to them by the new and self appointed keepers of higher education self indulgent and disrespectful.....and are insulted by the implication that they, the experienced staff, are ill informed, unintelligent, uneducated taskmasters.

I agreed with you...... until right now.

Fantastic that your ASN program taught you everything where you could come right out of graduation and take over an open heart unit. But, you are the exception. Some seem to put the ASN on a pedistal. Muno has pointed out numerous times it takes 3x longer to orient a BSN grad than an ADN. How insulting do you think that is to all the BSN grad and older BSNs? Reading back through the many posts here, how many have said a BSN with extra education is not needed for beside nursing. Can you honestly tell me you have NEVER known anyone who hasn't said some of the statements I used as an example? Are all of the ADNs or any RN that you have ever worked with so perfect that they know it all and NONE of them have ever been just task focused or drones to the check boxes? What a perfect world you must live in!

PMFB and MUNO are both supposedly leader in the nursing education world or supposedly on all of these committees. But neither of them have anything good to say about BSN nurses and Muno's attitude towards only hiring ADNs because he believes BSNs know so little they take 3x longer to orient. No wonder it has taken nursing over 60 years to get to 50% of the work force to a BSN. Other health professions and nonhealth professions met or exceeded without all the drama.

My wife is a teacher, my mother was a teacher, and my decision on which college to go to out of high school was based on pursuing an Ed degree, so no I have nothing against teachers I vote yes on every levy that comes along, although teachers salaries aren't typically determined by levies, state legislatures determine teachers salaries and appropriate funding for teachers' pay.

Don't you know about tax districting and state legislatures for funding?

I was referencing a quarter system.

Please post a Bachelors degree which only requires 120 quarter hours. That is barely an Associates degree.

I have no problem with BSN grads, and I have no problem with ADN grads. BSN was the route I chose but I'm not so arrogant to believe it is the only route that works.

You have no problem except your agree with your hospital to not hire BSNs because you thing they take 3x longer to orient.

I fully support the need for a BSN equivalent education, particularly when provided with post-program ongoing education. There is a lot of potential in the idea of a mandatory RN-BSN type program a few years out from graduation, but not just for ADN grads. I believe ADN programs should become essentially satellite BSN programs, but that Nursing education will fail miserably if we attempt to consolidate it or weed out the diverse life experience backgrounds that ADN grads bring to Nursing.

Did you ever think that some people would like to complete a Bachelors degree and then enter into the work force so they can start their career? Some might even want to move on with their personal life and not spent the next 20 years thinking someday they might go back to college and many never do. Other professions have gotten people ready to join the workforce in 4 years. Not all BSN grads are on the slow boat who need 3x more handholding than an ADN.

I cringe to think you are on any committee which holds such low opinions of BSNs and discriminates against them because of their eduation level at the Bachelors.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Fantastic that your ASN program taught you everything where you could come right out of graduation and take over an open heart unit.

Why do you insist on lying about people on here? Clearly Esme12 NEVER said anything like that. We only have to scroll up a little bit to see what she actually wrote and see that you are lying about her.

I am trying to decide if you have good intentions but really are unable to process the written word, or you have bad intentions.

Muno has pointed out numerous times it takes 3x longer to orient a BSN grad than an ADN. How insulting do you think that is to all the BSN grad and older BSNs?

Why is it insulting if what he is saying is true? I don't know if in his hospital it took 3x longer to orientate BSN grads but I find MunoRN to be highly credible and have no reason to doubt his word. Are you insulted that they need longer orientation, or insulted that MunoRN is letting the cat out of the bag. Not expecting an answer from you.

FWIW in our critical care nurse residency program we have found that BSN grads only need a few extra weeks of orientation, not 3x more than ADN grads.

PMFB and MUNO are both supposedly leader in the nursing education world

I am only a leader in the nursing education world in your mind, not realiety.

But neither of them have anything good to say about BSN nurses

Or anything bad either. Since there has been no discussion about BSN nurses how do you know what I have to say about my fellows? Not expecting an answer from you of course, just thinking.

Other health professions and nonhealth professions met or exceeded without all the drama

The drama is self inflicted. By choosing to ignore the proven path taken by those other professions, nursing leaders (like the ANA) have set themselves up for drama.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Fantastic that your ASN program taught you everything where you could come right out of graduation and take over an open heart unit. But, you are the exception. Some seem to put the ASN on a pedestal. Muno has pointed out numerous times it takes 3x longer to orient a BSN grad than an ADN. How insulting do you think that is to all the BSN grad and older BSNs? Reading back through the many posts here, how many have said a BSN with extra education is not needed for beside nursing. Can you honestly tell me you have NEVER known anyone who hasn't said some of the statements I used as an example? Are all of the ADNs or any RN that you have ever worked with so perfect that they know it all and NONE of them have ever been just task focused or drones to the check boxes? What a perfect world you must live in!

PMFB and MUNO are both supposedly leader in the nursing education world or supposedly on all of these committees. But neither of them have anything good to say about BSN nurses and Muno's attitude towards only hiring ADNs because he believes BSNs know so little they take 3x longer to orient. No wonder it has taken nursing over 60 years to get to 50% of the work force to a BSN. Other health professions and nonhealth professions met or exceeded without all the drama.

I NEVER said I took over a open heart unit upon graduation.....I did it without a BSN. If you quote me please do so correctly.

As offended as you are about the attitude of some and the BSN....they are just as offended by the insinuation that the ADN/ASN is somehow less of an RN that is un-intelligent and incapable of critical thought. Years ago nursing cared about the quality of graduates and not just about taking money for tuition. There was a standard that was adhered to...the system worked. In my day BSN was a NP....should have done it then.

I have met many nurses who say these things and it is NOT restricted to ASN/ADN grads. Not all nurses I had ever worked with, regardless of their degree, have been "perfect" and in the units I have worked (and I have been very fortunate) would not last long. I have met these task force drones and they are not exclusive to a degree. These nurses I did not hire...plain and simple.

I live in a far from perfect world. There is much wrong with nursing, and medicine, right now. I am hopeful it can right itself somehow for my daughters sake who will be starting next fall when she graduates. The push for a BSN to me....advocated by the very academics that profit from enrollment....has done nothing (in most cases) to increase the quality of the education and the nurses graduated. IMHO. In this push they have forgotten the basic principals of clinical experience and bedside education so that they theory can be applied.

Most new grads are lacking the clinical experience necessary so orientation is much longer and basic nursing skills need to be taught. It amazes me that you can get out of school and never insert a foley or take pharmacology. So many new grads are in such a hurry to get away for the bedside and get to the "big jobs", like CRNA, that they are losing perspective and patient care. How many posts do I see that ask "where can I find a job with no poop and people?" It boggles my mind.

It hasn't taken 60 years for BSN degrees to be 50%. A BSN 30 years ago was similar to the Masters now. But this argument has been bantered about for the 35 years I have been a nurse and the opponents are becoming more disrespectful in disscussing their point of view with one side consistantly beleiveing they are superior somehow...which never brings about comaradarie and change.

Specializes in CCM, PHN.
Then you are not in a hospital setting ...them what you say makes sense. I agree outside of the hospital bedside setting I can see that the BSN gets a higher rate of pay. As a seasoned RN in acute care I wouldn't consider a salaried position without a near six figure tag (for my area) or an good package that makes up for it in comp time or bonus....there is far too much free time that is given in OT. Corporate/business is different from hospital management

Actually Esme, I *am* in a hospital setting! Where did I say I wasn't? You're reaching very far and very hard to win your argument. Making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths doesn't exactly bode well for your debate. I know MANY case managers, nurse educators, informatics and research nurses that work IN hospital settings, alongside floor nurses and doctors, who are salaried and have 9-5, M-F schedules, and get paid MORE because they have BSN! Sorry to have to be the bearer of GOOD news, Esme. But it's the reality that is THANKFULLY spreading.

Specializes in Critical Care.
Don't you know about tax districting and state legislatures for funding?

I'm aware of both, what's your question?

Please post a Bachelors degree which only requires 120 quarter hours. That is barely an Associates degree.

I think you're confusing the Nursing program portion of a degree, whether it be a bachelor's or associates, and the non-program portion. A bachelor's degree requires many more credits outside of the program itself in the form of general electives (art history and the like). I agree that such classes make someone a more rounded person, although in terms of performance as a Nurse I wouldn't argue that this is the only way to broaden a person's horizons and very well may not be worth the cost compared to other educational opportunities.

You have no problem except your agree with your hospital to not hire BSNs because you thing they take 3x longer to orient.

Our system of hospitals was experiencing a longer orientation period for BSN graduates through no fault of the graduates themselves. ADN graduates were typically talking a full load of patients with minimum assistance for a significant portion of their preceptorships, which we found was less likely for BSN grads who were completing their preceptorships at only half to 3/4 of a full patient load. We haven't found that BSN's lack the ability to move up, just that they tend to be farther back on the timeline to independent practice, which was attributed to more restricted clinical opportunity, even if they included more clinical hours.

Did you ever think that some people would like to complete a Bachelors degree and then enter into the work force so they can start their career? Some might even want to move on with their personal life and not spent the next 20 years thinking someday they might go back to college and many never do. Other professions have gotten people ready to join the workforce in 4 years. Not all BSN grads are on the slow boat who need 3x more handholding than an ADN.

Are you under the impression I think we should do away with the BSN?

I cringe to think you are on any committee which holds such low opinions of BSNs and discriminates against them because of their eduation level at the Bachelors.

I believe that BSN education is model for ADN programs to follow, do you think I discriminate against BSNs because I don't baselessly discriminate against ADNs? Why does advocating for a reasoned approach to Nursing education reform mean I'm a BSN-hater.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I know MANY case managers, nurse educators, informatics and research nurses that work IN hospital settings, alongside floor nurses and doctors, who are salaried and have 9-5, M-F schedules, and get paid MORE because they have BSN!

Interesting. Where I work RNs with BSN are not elligable to apply for nuse educator, research, or infomatics jobs. They can apply for case managment jobs, I just don't hear about them actually getting them much.

Specializes in Just starting out in a Nursing Home..

Really? Good to know because I am trying to get my bachelors in Nursing while doing CNA work. I still don't think that your degree level should be as important as years of experience. Your able to understand at whatever level you are able to understand.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Actually Esme, I *am* in a hospital setting! Where did I say I wasn't? You're reaching very far and very hard to win your argument. Making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths doesn't exactly bode well for your debate. I know MANY case managers, nurse educators, informatics and research nurses that work IN hospital settings, alongside floor nurses and doctors, who are salaried and have 9-5, M-F schedules, and get paid MORE because they have BSN! Sorry to have to be the bearer of GOOD news, Esme. But it's the reality that is THANKFULLY spreading.
I'm sorry I assumed wrong. I meant no disrespect. I assumed when you said you come and go it wasn't a hospital...my bad....I'm really sorry.:shy: I stand corrected.

I never said that those with a BSN in these positions don't get paid more. I said as a new grad...the pay is, and should be, essentially the same. The earning potential is always higher with more education. I am talking about a new grad, is a new grad, is a new grad. One should not walk into entry positions and expect to get paid more just because they graduated with a BSN. Don't put words into my mouth. As the bearer of good news I have my BSN as well as bachelors degrees in biology and music.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the BSN single entry. I am so tired of this argument. Positions like case management and research are 9-5 and I never said they weren't. These positions require experience and the trend is towards BSN required is increasing in many areas of the country. These positions usually pay more as they require experience. Is it the experience that they are being paid for or the BSN? I know of many case managers with ADN's.

I made a mistake that you were not in a hospital setting and for that I am sorry.

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