First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.
There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.
I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
But that's my point; I was an LPN for 7 years before I was licensed as a BSN; I had no choice but to go to a part time program; which was offered by a university part time; the ADN program was full time during the week; plus I decided long ago, to me if I want to spend my time in school for 4 years, it will be a 4 yet degree, not for a 2 year degree.
The 4 years I mentioned was for a part time program for a person who had never been to college and no health care experience. LPNs can become and RN in two, 4 month semesters full time, or four part time semesters while continuing to work full time. That is pretty huge.
I agree that f one is going to invest 4 years of full time work then a BSN program seems like a no brainer.
Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
Another advantage to the RN of entering nursing with an ADN vs BSN that we often don't think about is career advancement. In our nurse residency program we have had several nurses who went to high school together. The ones who went to ADN programs and get hired have already been working in our ICU for two years by the time their university BSN friends get hired. We have had several cases where a nurse is serving as a preceptor for her high school friend when they both started nursing school together. Those with ADNs have two solid years of ICU experience have made around $130K over two years, usually have CCRN, and often are completing their RN to BSN or RN to MSN at the same moment their BSN peers are graduating from university and are preparing to take NCLEX. Those who entered as ADNs are ready to serve as charge and preceptors in the ICU, do travel nursing, apply to CRNA or NP school, apply for flight nursing, or apply for jobs away from the bedside as assistant nurse managers, infection control, wound nurses, or any of the many other non-bedside nurse jobs available to experienced nurses. I have seen this cause some resentment among certain new grad BSNs. As one put it to me: "I worked very hard in high school to get the grades I needed to get into a good university. I missed out on a lot of fun stuff. I have tens of thousands of student loan debt and a $400/month payment on it. In college I worked hard to get good grades and missed out on lots of things to excel in a challenging nursing program. Now I come here and find I am behind everyone else!"[/quote']
PMFB, you are basing your entire assumption on each and every ADN grad finding a job. In today's employment market, who do you think a facility is going to hire- the BSN who will help them meet goals of primarily BSN nurses without having to pay any form of tuition reimbursement or the ADN grad who goes on to get a BSN and seeks tuition reimbursement and won't help meet the goal for BSNs as quickly?
As for your whole premise of ADN education being cheaper, all I can say is check your facts. I spent five years at a private university (changed majors halfway through sophomore year) and spent far less than the cost of both of the local ADN programs.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
PMFB, you are basing your entire assumption
I am not sure if you read my message you quoted. I don't make any assumptions.
on each and every ADN grad finding a job.
I am sharing my experiences. As I already mentioned all the ADNs I have precepted in the last few years HAVE gotten acute care nursing jobs. I make no attempt to generalize across "each and ever ADN grad". Plus I clearly point out that if the ADN can't get a job the advantage is moot.
In today's employment market, who do you think a facility is going to hire- the BSN who will help them meet goals of primarily BSN nurses without having to pay any form of tuition reimbursement or the ADN grad who goes on to get a BSN and seeks tuition reimbursement and won't help meet the goal for BSNs as quickly?
Quite obviously YMMV. Not every hospital has a goal of BSNs at the bedside. Now that Magnet is fading and many of the better hospitals are giving it up I think fewer have this goal. I know of one local hospital that refuses to even hire new grads BSNs into it's nurse residency program for the SICU.
As I mentioned already, if the new grad ADN can't get a job then the point is moot.
As for your whole premise of ADN education being cheaper, all I can say is check your facts.
Check YOUR facts. Better yet, please actually READ what I have written. Doing so will prevent you from making erroneous statements like this. I gave one specific example of the cost of programs in MY STATE. I did not say that is true everywhere. I know better.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
To make a bold statement that a BSN student loses out on money is not entirely true in certain areas;
Uh, I thought that was so obvious as to not need pointing out. Also try not to engage in wishful reading. That is reading what you wish I wrote, rather than what is ACTUALLY written. Had you done so you would quickly realize that I NEVER made a "bold statement that a BSN student loses out on money".
I gave an example to demonstrate a principal. I am not as dull as you seem to think. I am not so stupid as to make bold statements about every program everywhere. I know better, I know what I don't know.
My hospital system is the second largest in the state. It pays .10 cents an hour more to BSN prepared nurses than to ADNs. However, it will not currently hire ADN's without an agreement they will return for their BSN's.
As far as opportunity costs, I did my pre-reqs with a friend. I went to a BSN school and she went to an ADN school (after not being accepted to the. BSN). We started our programs at the same time. She finished in May and I finished in July of the same year. She was hired to start middle of sept and me first of October. So for us the difference in employment ended up being two weeks.
For me the decision to go for the BSN was twofold. One, I wanted a Bachelors degree for career purposes. If I decided nursing wasn't for me I knew I would need a BS to do something different. I already had an AS in education and way back when that was all that was required to teach pre-k. That had changed and now to do most anything a BS is required. Even in nursing to do anything beyond bedside a BS is now required most of the time. Two, I knew I planned to pursue Nurse Practitioner school. It was my main goal from day 1. So I'd need a BS anyway.
I don't think there is much of a difference -clinically- in ADN programs vs BSN based on the fact we all take the nclex. And my friend who went to an ADN school had the same clinicals I did with the exception of community. My additional courses beyond that were non clinical- ethics, research, and leadership. I'm not sure about clinical hours required though. I don't know how we compared that way, other than I know my school required more practicum hours than any other in the state, so it's possible I had more clinical hours at graduation. However, I felt like the quality of her hours were better. She got experience with trachs and NG tubes but I didn't. Maybe it was just a fluke.
Non-clinically we wrote many more papers which were much longer and the APA was much more stringent. We were pushed very hard academically and my friend always said she was happy she didn't have to do what we did, she said her papers were hard enough! I also had more classes each semester which made my program more rigorous, which can be argued to be good or bad. Research however was an important class because of the direction medicine is headed with EBP. I think ADNs should be required to take that class.
I actually think BSN should be the entry level just as it is for other professions because I believe it would increase the level of professionalism and intelligent staff, as is usually the case when the entry level requirement is raised. I have met nurses who charted things like "breast ogmentition" I'm not joking. And I think research should be a requirement for all nurses. And lastly, many community colleges are simply not up to the standard of a university. I can say that as I am a graduate of both. The English classes I took at my community college did not prepare me for writing on a real college level when I became a university student. The sciences I took were a joke compared to my university science classes.
So that's my opinion for all that it's worth. I hope it makes sense! I typed from my phone and was interrupted constantly by my daughter!
Uh I thought that was so obvious as to not need pointing out. Also try not to engage in wishful reading. That is reading what you wish I wrote, rather than what is ACTUALLY written. Had you done so you would quickly realize that I NEVER made a "bold statement that a BSN student loses out on money". I gave an example to demonstrate a principal. I am not as dull as you seem to think. I am not so stupid as to make bold statements about every program everywhere. I know better, I know what I don't know.[/quote']
Actually, the quote from my previous post was in referral to the previous poster who spoke of economics of BSN programs stating the 100 K bill; it was NOT in reference to your post at all.
I also do not make assumptions into anyone; you know what that makes the one who makes the assumption; I hope when I post, others do not do the same towards me as you have decided to do.
My posts are simply in reference of the previous poster in addition to the thread usually; that's my preference; I am always willing to clarify.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I actually think BSN should be the entry level just as it is for other professions because I believe it would increase the level of professionalism and intelligent staff, as is usually the case when the entry level requirement is raised. I have met nurses who charted things like "breast ogmentition" I'm not joking.
More years of education and higher degrees will do nothing to improve the grammar and spelling of the people you work with. This should become obvious when one reads doctors notes. Many I read seem to have been written at the 6th grade level.
I actually think BSN should be the entry level just as it is for other professions
(Not trying to be argumentative and your comment is something that gets said fairly often in these conversations, but, just for the record, there isn't any other recognized profession for which a baccalaureate degree is the "entry level." They all require graduate level preparation as the minimum for entry.)
(Not trying to be argumentative and your comment is something that gets said fairly often in these conversations but, just for the record, there isn't any other recognized profession for which a baccalaureate degree is the "entry level." They all require graduate level preparation as the minimum for entry.)[/quote'] Technically you're nearly correct. The list of "professions" does include teachers (where the min ed is a BS). I should've said "professional careers" or some other wording. I was referring to careers like marketing, accounting, management, etc. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
More years of education and higher degrees will do nothing to improve the grammar and spelling of the people you work with. This should become obvious when one reads doctors notes. Many I read seem to have been written at the 6th grade level.
Maybe in regards to spelling and grammar... But I gained better writing/communication skills at my university than I did at my community college. But age/desire may have been a factor as well.
I do think professionalism tends to rise with educational level though, don't you? If you put out 3 ads for an administrative assistant and you specified no degree in one, HS grad in one, and BS degree in one, which ad would bring you the more professional candidates most likely?
Maybe in regards to spelling and grammar... But I gained better writing/communication skills at my university than I did at my community college. But age/desire may have been a factor as well.
I do think professionalism tends to rise with educational level though, don't you? If you put out 3 ads for an administrative assistant and you specified no degree in one, HS grad in one, and BS degree in one, which ad would bring you the more professional candidates most likely?
Did you take the same classes at a University or did you take higher level English/Communications classes at a University than what you did at a Community College?
Some of the classes were the same because the college wouldn't grant me the credits stating it was different even though the course catalog descriptions were nearly identical. Some were obviously different and higher level.
PMFB-RN, RN
5,351 Posts
The 4 years I mentioned was for a part time program for a person who had never been to college and no health care experience. LPNs can become and RN in two, 4 month semesters full time, or four part time semesters while continuing to work full time. That is pretty huge.
I agree that f one is going to invest 4 years of full time work then a BSN program seems like a no brainer.