First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.
There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.
I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I do think professionalism tends to rise with educational level though, don't you? If you put out 3 ads for an administrative assistant and you specified no degree in one, HS grad in one, and BS degree in one, which ad would bring you the more professional candidates most likely?
I don't know anything about administrative assistants or what kind of people would answer an add for one.
If we are speaking of nursing then I do not agree with you. I have not observed a relationship between professional behavior and nursing degree held.
Some of the classes were the same because the college wouldn't grant me the credits stating it was different even though the course catalog descriptions were nearly identical. Some were obviously different and higher level.
Prior to Nursing, I obtained a bachelors in a different field. When I went back to Nursing school I had to retake some classes since it was required that they were taken in the last 5 years. During the summer, classes at the University were not subsidized, making them ridiculously expensive, so I took classes at a community college, which I assumed carried the added bonus of being a little easer. I think it was partly because I was older and applied a higher expectation of myself, but none of the classes I took were easier than when I took them at a University, English and Anatomy were arguably harder at the community college. By definition though, they are no different, they are required to have the same curriculum requirements and standards.
Maybe in regards to spelling and grammar... But I gained better writing/communication skills at my university than I did at my community college. But age/desire may have been a factor as well.
I do think professionalism tends to rise with educational level though, don't you? If you put out 3 ads for an administrative assistant and you specified no degree in one, HS grad in one, and BS degree in one, which ad would bring you the more professional candidates most likely?
I'm a second career Nurse, as a part of one of my previous careers I frequently hired young workers, typically college students or graduates. While there was no truly consistent rule to be found, if I had to hire based on nothing other than whether they were a University student or Community College student, I'd take the Community College student hands down. University students (and I say this being a former one myself) were more likely to be irresponsible spoiled little brats with no work ethic, which doesn't mean I never hired any University students who displayed "professionalism", it was just less common. So no, I don't agree that being a University student/grad implies any increased "professionalism" compared to a community college student or grad.
I'm a second career Nurse, as a part of one of my previous careers I frequently hired young workers, typically college students or graduates. While there was no truly consistent rule to be found, if I had to hire based on nothing other than whether they were a University student or Community College student, I'd take the Community College student hands down. University students (and I say this being a former one myself) were more likely to be irresponsible spoiled little brats with no work ethic, which doesn't mean I never hired any University students who displayed "professionalism", it was just less common. So no, I don't agree that being a University student/grad implies any increased "professionalism" compared to a community college student or grad.
You have just insulted a lot of people including many of the 50% of the RNs (and NPs) who hold a degree from a University. It also includes those from other professions (PT, OT, SLP, MT) which require a degree usually offered at a majority university. Did you know that doctors are usually graduates from an university? What about the accountant who does your taxes? School teachers who are responsible for teaching your child? Pharmacists?
But, if you want to go the insulting route, some believe community college students are more likely to be lazy slackers who want to free load off their parents for the next 10 years to earn a 2 year degree.
This short sightedness for the future is why some who have been in nursing for a long time with their ADN have fought hard to make others believe health care is still the same as when they first started and nothing ever changes and never will.
You have just insulted a lot of people including many of the 50% of the RNs (and NPs) who hold a degree from a University. It also includes those from other professions (PT, OT, SLP, MT) which require a degree usually offered at a majority university. Did you know that doctors are usually graduates from an university? What about the accountant who does your taxes? School teachers who are responsible for teaching your child? Pharmacists?
Don't forget myself, I also insulted myself, twice as much actually since I have two bachelor's degrees, not to mention my wife and parents. I had a feeling someone would really stretch to feel insulted by that, despite qualifying in a couple different ways that it is not true of all students. Most rapes are committed by men, so a rapist is more likely to be male, would you take that as meaning I'm accusing all men of being rapists?
But, if you want to go the insulting route, some believe community college students are more likely to be lazy slackers who want to free load off their parents for the next 10 years to earn a 2 year degree.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
This short sightedness for the future is why some who have been in nursing for a long time with their ADN have fought hard to make others believe health care is still the same as when they first started and nothing ever changes and never will.
Much of the ADN/BSN debate often seems based on a deliberate lack of understanding of current state of ADN programs. Nursing has changed, and as a result so have ADN programs, which is why the curriculum in more and more ADN programs is now the same as in BSN programs, minus about 6-10 credits.
Surely in all of your college experience you have heard this reference made by all of those irresponsible spoiled little brats with no work ethic. This is even discussed among juniors and seniors in high school as they make out their college applications.
Much of the ADN/BSN debate often seems based on a deliberate lack of understanding of current state of ADN programs. Nursing has changed, and as a result so have ADN programs, which is why the curriculum in more and more ADN programs is now the same as in BSN programs, minus about 6-10 credits.
Then that would mean there is a lack of understanding amongst those in the ADN programs. If they are the same, why not get the one called "BSN"? It would seem foolish to get an ADN which does not have equal merit in the working world to the BSN degree if they are both the same. This seems to be more of a marketing gimmick by ADN programs in an attempt to keep their programs viable a little longer even though employers are clearly stating "BSN preferred" in their job ads.
How many ADN students have you told this to and how many have actually tried telling a potential employer that the ADN is the same as a BSN? Have these ADN grads tried to get into NP school by saying their ADN and a BSN are the same?
Please provide examples of ADN programs which require 120 semester credits or 160 quarter units. I will then show how that could have easily have been a BSN degree at a state university without the need for someone to say "I will eventually go back for my BSN" and spend at least two more years in school with additional costs.
Surely in all of your college experience you have heard this reference made by all of those irresponsible spoiled little brats with no work ethic. This is even discussed among juniors and seniors in high school as they make out their college applications.
I'm still not clear on the reference you're referring to.
Then that would mean there is a lack of understanding amongst those in the ADN programs. If they are the same, why not get the one called "BSN"? It would seem foolish to get an ADN which does not have equal merit in the working world to the BSN degree if they are both the same. This seems to be more of a marketing gimmick by ADN programs in an attempt to keep their programs viable a little longer even though employers are clearly stating "BSN preferred" in their job ads.
How many ADN students have you told this to and how many have actually tried telling a potential employer that the ADN is the same as a BSN? Have these ADN grads tried to get into NP school by saying their ADN and a BSN are the same?
Please provide examples of ADN programs which require 120 semester credits or 160 quarter units. I will then show how that could have easily have been a BSN degree at a state university without the need for someone to say "I will eventually go back for my BSN" and spend at least two more years in school with additional costs.
BSN programs are not 160 quarter credits. A BSN consists of general electives, pre-requisites, and the program itself, with the program portion making up about half the total credits. An ADN consists of pre-requisites and the program itself, often about 120 to 130 total credits in my state now that ADN programs now require pre-requisites to cover everything that's required to move directly into an RN-BSN program.
In 14 states, ADN programs are required to have articulation agreements with BSN programs, for which BSN programs typically require ADN programs to adopt their curriculum, minus a leadership and community health class. In the states where it's not a legal requirement, the shift is still well underway.
My state has no legal requirement, but there is only one program left that has no articulation agreement (and the corresponding adoption of BSN curriculum) although it's also in the process of being phased out.
I was on a panel that was supposed to plan our State's transition to a BSN only requirement, although in the end we decided against such a path. The first problem is that it's simply not possible to dissolve all the ADN programs and have the current BSN programs absorb them. Clinical opportunities for BSN programs are already stretched thin, doubling the number of students competing for limited clinical spots would have drastically worsened BSN education. There was also concern about the effect this would have on the demographics of Nursing students.
The only viable option left was to just rename ADN programs as BSN programs, which added a huge cost to students without altering their actual education since the adoption of BSN curriculum was already widespread. For many students, it may be worth spending $30,000 and up to simply change the letters on their degree, but for many that is nothing more than a huge pay cut. For those who move on towards an NP then it's part of the cost, but as I'm sure you're aware not all Nurses move on to advanced degrees. If it's necessary to gain employment then a student can make that choice, but the difference isn't really that great, there is about a 4% difference in finding a job at 6 months between ADN and all BSN degrees.
In other words, we agreed that BSN curriculum should be the standard, but students should be able to decide if the letters (B-S-N) that go with it are worth the rather massive cost.
I'm still not clear on the reference you're referring to.
Really?
BSN programs are not 160 quarter credits. A BSN consists of general electives, pre-requisites, and the program itself, with the program portion making up about half the total credits. An ADN consists of pre-requisites and the program itself, often about 120 to 130 total credits in my state now that ADN programs now require pre-requisites to cover everything that's required to move directly into an RN-BSN program.
In my previous post I clearly stated either semester or quarter units.
Here is an example of one university. It clears states 180 - 200 units and they are on the quarter system.
This is not specific to a state but rather to the school system. There are just as many colleges which are based on the semester credit system.
In 14 states, ADN programs are required to have articulation agreements with BSN programs, for which BSN programs typically require ADN programs to adopt their curriculum, minus a leadership and community health class. In the states where it's not a legal requirement, the shift is still well underway.
You stated ADN. These programs do NOT call themselves BSN until they have fulfilled the upper level requirement.
My state has no legal requirement, but there is only one program left that has no articulation agreement (and the corresponding adoption of BSN curriculum) although it's also in the process of being phased out.
At least your state is seeing the light that BSN is the way to go. Now if only you could see that ADN does not equal BSN and the articulation program is to either have the student transfer easily to a university or complete the upper level requirements necessary for a BSN.
I was on a panel that was supposed to plan our State's transition to a BSN only requirement, although in the end we decided against such a path. The first problem is that it's simply not possible to dissolve all the ADN programs and have the current BSN programs absorb them. Clinical opportunities for BSN programs are already stretched thin, doubling the number of students competing for limited clinical spots would have drastically worsened BSN education. There was also concern about the effect this would have on the demographics of Nursing students.
But again, ADN does not equal BSN.
The only viable option left was to just rename ADN programs as BSN programs, which added a huge cost to students without altering their actual education since the adoption of BSN curriculum was already widespread. For many students, it may be worth spending $30,000 and up to simply change the letters on their degree, but for many that is nothing more than a huge pay cut. For those who move on towards an NP then it's part of the cost, but as I'm sure you're aware not all Nurses move on to advanced degrees. If it's necessary to gain employment then a student can make that choice, but the difference isn't really that great, there is about a 4% difference in finding a job at 6 months between ADN and all BSN degrees.
In other words, we agreed that BSN curriculum should be the standard, but students should be able to decide if the letters (B-S-N) that go with it are worth the rather massive cost.
Is it not more costly to sucker someone into believing an ADN is the same as a BSN and then have them go back for a real BSN degree later? Regardless of how you spell B-S-N, employers and graduate schools are not going to believe A-D-N is the same thing.
Not all colleges have the articulation programs but most all have had transfer options with some higher level college.
For those who do not know what articulation programs are, it is a type of process which will allow for easier transfer to a 4 year college. Some 4 year colleges now come to the community college campus for easy access.
This is not specific to a state but rather to the school system. There are just as many colleges which are based on the semester credit system.
The 160 quarter credits was your figure not mine, you seem to be arguing with you're own proposed numbers.
You'll notice however that the actual Nursing Program at UCLA is about 95 credits, not all that different from many ADN programs.
You stated ADN. These programs do NOT call themselves BSN until they have fulfilled the upper level requirement.
Yes, they are ADN programs which facilitate a smooth transition into an RN-BSN program, a BSN is not obtained until the RN-BSN is completed.
At least your state is seeing the light that BSN is the way to go. Now if only you could see that ADN does not equal BSN and the articulation program is to either have the student transfer easily to a university or complete the upper level requirements necessary for a BSN.
But again, ADN does not equal BSN.
I'm not sure where you are getting that they are supposedly equal. They are not equal, but are also not as different as they used to be. If what someone wants out of an BSN program is the curriculum, but doesn't need actual BSN for employment or continuing education purposes, then an ADN program with a largely BSN curriculum might be the most practical choice.
Is it not more costly to sucker someone into believing an ADN is the same as a BSN and then have them go back for a real BSN degree later? Regardless of how you spell B-S-N, employers and graduate schools are not going to believe A-D-N is the same thing.
These students aren't idiots, they are able to comprehend that and ADN degree is not a BSN degree. I don't think anyone expects employers to not know the difference between an ADN and BSN, the issue is whether or not it actually affects their ability to obtain employment. My current employer has listed "BSN preferred" on job postings for many years, although the hiring managers have never actually had a preference for BSN's and we even went through a period where there was a hold on hiring any BSN's (we were still hiring ADN's). I work with the local CC Nursing program and am familiar with the pre-admission process, which includes a mandatory information session and mandatory guidance counseling, which includes jobs prospects and ongoing education needs.
The 160 quarter credits was your figure not mine, you seem to be arguing with you're own proposed numbers.
What are you talking about? Do you not understand the difference between semester and quarter units? The UCLA system is quarter as I pointe out. At minimum some colleges have 160 units but UCLA just happens to have 180 required. This is not semester units. You need to understand the difference which I clearly stated earlier. I have no idea what you are trying to prove with this. Just do a little math for the conversion between units.
BSN programs are not 160 quarter credits. A BSN consists of general electives, pre-requisites, and the program itself, with the program portion making up about half the total credits. An ADN consists of pre-requisites and the program itself, often about 120 to 130 total credits in my state now that ADN programs now require pre-requisites to cover everything that's required to move directly into an RN-BSN program.
You'll notice however that the actual Nursing Program at UCLA is about 95 credits, not all that different from many ADN programs.
I think you missed the prerequisite or lower class credits.
Again, it might help if you posted links to the ADN programs you are talking about.
I'm not sure where you are getting that they are supposedly equal. They are not equal, but are also not as different as they used to be. If what someone wants out of an BSN program is the curriculum, but doesn't need actual BSN for employment or continuing education purposes, then an ADN program with a largely BSN curriculum might be the most practical choice.
I got the part about them being the same from you and I have been arguing with examples that they are not. I also post what an articulation program is.
Much of the ADN/BSN debate often seems based on a deliberate lack of understanding of current state of ADN programs. Nursing has changed, and as a result so have ADN programs, which is why the curriculum in more and more ADN programs is now the same as in BSN programs, minus about 6-10 credits.
These students aren't idiots, they are able to comprehend that and ADN degree is not a BSN degree. I don't think anyone expects employers to not know the difference between an ADN and BSN, the issue is whether or not it actually affects their ability to obtain employment. My current employer has listed "BSN preferred" on job postings for many years, although the hiring managers have never actually had a preference for BSN's and we even went through a period where there was a hold on hiring any BSN's (we were still hiring ADN's). I work with the local CC Nursing program and am familiar with the pre-admission process, which includes a mandatory information session and mandatory guidance counseling, which includes jobs prospects and ongoing education needs.
Are you saying your employer actively discriminates against those with a BSN? Is this because they are cheaper? Or, is it because the managers are the ones who lag in education and have not advanced their education level? Either way it does not speak well of your facility to put a hold on education.
I can now see your bias since your employer is a CC. I would hope your college has educators who hold at least a BSN.
In your preadmission session do you explain about the advancing standards and that many employers now want a BSN? Or, do you paint a very rosy ADN picture and that it will be THE degree forever and nothing will every change? Not all hospitals will be hiring just ADNs like your employer.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Have these ADN grads tried to get into NP school by saying their ADN and a BSN are the same?
FWIW ADN RNs have no trouble getting into NP programs. They do so all the time. I can name 8 or 9 NPs who work in my hospital right now who were ADNs who went to NP school. I know several others in NP school right now. There is no need for them to get a BSN to do it either.
The ironic thing about your comment is that it is the grad schools who are actually recognizing that ADNs are pretty much = BSN minus a few credits. That is exactly why there are so many ADN to MSN NP programs out there that allow ADNs to do 6-12 bridge credits and then enter the MSN NP program directly.
PMFB-RN, RN
5,351 Posts
I don't know anything about administrative assistants or what kind of people would answer an add for one.
If we are speaking of nursing then I do not agree with you. I have not observed a relationship between professional behavior and nursing degree held.