First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.
There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.
I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.
I simply stated the aggregate raw data; can you explain how it is misstated? Nurses holding a BSN make, in aggregate, 6-10% more per year than nurses holding an ADN. I did not draw an conclusions from it, just stated the raw data. If you want to discuss the implications of the data I would be happy to.
You quoted a "differential" of 6-8%. The term "differential" has a specific meaning in terms of wages. In general it implies a single basis on which someone is paid more than someone else, in other words, given 2 Nurses working the same job in the same facility, one is paid more based on shift, or in this case, level of education.
See this, to me, is a misstatement. Here is what the data shows as far as I have seen. The split between BSN/ADN in urban areas is 45/55 while the split in rural areas is 30/70. The predominant degree in both cases is associates. We know that 81% of nurses work in urban areas so the predominant locale for employment is urban. We also know that 20% of nurses living in rural areas commute to urban areas for work. We also know that the ratio in employment in hospitals vs out-patient settings is higher in urban setting vs rural settings. There is also the issue of experience and certification, both of which are associated with salary differences, which I would assume at significantly different between urban and rural settings (though I don't have the data on-hand). There are a number of factors here that muddy the argument about "cost of living".
In fact, some interesting data from 2000 shows that where a nurse works (urban vs rural) is less of a factor than where a nurse lives (urban vs rural).
This is the most current data I'm aware of and shows ADN/BSN comprises 35%/47% of urban nurses, and 52%/34% of rural Nurses. That's more than just a token difference between the two, even if you assume some portion of those commute to areas of a higher cost of living. I certainly don't think we can assume it accounts for the entire difference, but I also don't think it amounts to no difference. Meaning the difference a degree makes in pay is anywhere from 0 to 10%.
The data does include more than just bedside nurses and is not a direct comparison of degree in the same role, I agree with you. The other side of this argument is that BSN-prepared nurses have more options for career advancement leading to higher average salary, which I would assume you also agree with.
There is, however, evidence that by obtaining a BSN they have the potential to earn additional money. From my perspective it is very difficult to take any sort of aggregate data, even from a well designed and controlled study, and apply it directly to an individual.
I would guess that if we were to conduct a strictly controlled study on degree (BSN vs ADN) holding experience, certification, locale, setting constant there would not be a significant difference at this time. This does not say anything about the future; in earnest, do you think that new-grad ADNs have the same opportunities as new-grad BSNs? Do you think that they will continue to?
Again, I do not have a horse in this race. I am not biased one way or the other as it really does not pertain to me other than an academic interest.
BSN grads definitely have more room to move up, although not all Nurses will move up nor could they even if they all had PhD's. Even if we assume that half of all Nurses will move into management positions or pursue advanced degrees and will need BSN's, we'll already meeting that goal with about half of Nurses obtaining BSN's.
Currently there is actually very little difference, about 4%, in likelihood of finding a job between ADN's and BSN's. If we don't actively address the problem, then degree inflation could certainly harm us in the future.
Any I have told you in the past that it's not about me. I only serve as an example and there are many, many more like me in similar positions.
You say it's not about you then use yourself and your experience as your data.
I am sure there are many accomplished ADN-RNs across the country, I personally know several who have advanced as far as they wish to (and many many moree than went on to advanced degrees), but these individuals are not representative of the million-plus ADN-RNs out there or the 86,000 new-grad ADN-RNs that graduate every year.
Uh, no wonder you haven't received an answer before. What a ridiculous question.
You quoted a "differential" of 6-8%. The term "differential" has a specific meaning in terms of wages. In general it implies a single basis on which someone is paid more than someone else, in other words, given 2 Nurses working the same job in the same facility, one is paid more based on shift, or in this case, level of education.
I used "differential" (not "wage differential" or "compensating differential") which according to Merriam-Webster means "making a distinction between individuals or classes". This is just semantics and really isn't worth debating as it does not change the point of the message.
This is the most current data I'm aware of and shows ADN/BSN comprises 35%/47% of urban nurses, and 52%/34% of rural Nurses. That's more than just a token difference between the two, even if you assume some portion of those commute to areas of a higher cost of living. I certainly don't think we can assume it accounts for the entire difference, but I also don't think it amounts to no difference. Meaning the difference a degree makes in pay is anywhere from 0 to 10%.
I had forgotten about that data so I did take some time and read it through a number of times; big sample size comparable to the 2000 census data that really lets the reader follow a trend over 8 years. It actually paints a picture that, in my opinion, is more concerning for ADN-RNs that wish to work in urban areas, but it also my reflect the fact many urban systems are paying for ADN-BSN programs. It would be interesting to run a regression on that, could be a publication for someone in that.
Despite the change in distribution over the past 8 years, there really hasn't been a significant change in the aggregate wage difference nationally. I am not quite sure how I interpret that. If ADNs made 8% less than BSNs in 2000, with the shift towards more rural employment, one would expect the wage difference to increase if it was cost-of-living driven.
BSN grads definitely have more room to move up, although not all Nurses will move up nor could they even if they all had PhD's. Even if we assume that half of all Nurses will move into management positions or pursue advanced degrees and will need BSN's, we'll already meeting that goal with about half of Nurses obtaining BSN's.
Currently there is actually very little difference, about 4%, in likelihood of finding a job between ADN's and BSN's. If we don't actively address the problem, then degree inflation could certainly harm us in the future.
I would think four percent is fairly significant; if the national unemployment rate jumped from 7% to 11% most people would revolt, well there would be lots of talk about it anyways. I would be very curious to see if there is any difference in finding the "ideal" job; I have two good friends that graduated two years ago from ADN programs in the city, and while both are employed now, neither is working in a job or hospital they desire to work in. That is a factor in quality of life too.
Degree inflation is a major concern, but again, there are many other factor in this outside of the conspiracy-theory about the ANA and universities international ploy to make more money. Colleges and universities are businesses, there is no doubt about that. I seriously wonder if many disciplines now require a bachelor's degree because our primary schooling in this country has declined, but that is another debate entirely.
I used "differential" (not "wage differential" or "compensating differential") which according to Merriam-Webster means "making a distinction between individuals or classes". This is just semantics and really isn't worth debating as it does not change the point of the message.
You used "differential" in the context of wages which would certainly imply a "wage differential", differentiating between an increased value that is directly attributed to level of degree and increased value that is at least in part due to secondary factors is important. There seems to be an impression (not necessarily from you) that overall, Nurses will get paid more if we all have BSN's, which there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support at least to the degree we seem to suggest. In general, our 'customers' (facilties, insurers, etc), don't appear to feel the need to pay BSN's significantly different, what appears to be happening is that we have self-imposed a factor that for many Nurses will mean not much more than a pay cut over the course of their career.
I had forgotten about that data so I did take some time and read it through a number of times; big sample size comparable to the 2000 census data that really lets the reader follow a trend over 8 years. It actually paints a picture that, in my opinion, is more concerning for ADN-RNs that wish to work in urban areas, but it also my reflect the fact many urban systems are paying for ADN-BSN programs. It would be interesting to run a regression on that, could be a publication for someone in that.
Despite the change in distribution over the past 8 years, there really hasn't been a significant change in the aggregate wage difference nationally. I am not quite sure how I interpret that. If ADNs made 8% less than BSNs in 2000, with the shift towards more rural employment, one would expect the wage difference to increase if it was cost-of-living driven.
I agree that the data raises as many questions as answers, which is why it's just as important to clarify what the data doesn't say as what it does say.
I would think four percent is fairly significant; if the national unemployment rate jumped from 7% to 11% most people would revolt, well there would be lots of talk about it anyways. I would be very curious to see if there is any difference in finding the "ideal" job; I have two good friends that graduated two years ago from ADN programs in the city, and while both are employed now, neither is working in a job or hospital they desire to work in. That is a factor in quality of life too.
Degree inflation is a major concern, but again, there are many other factor in this outside of the conspiracy-theory about the ANA and universities international ploy to make more money. Colleges and universities are businesses, there is no doubt about that. I seriously wonder if many disciplines now require a bachelor's degree because our primary schooling in this country has declined, but that is another debate entirely.
That's the advantage to allowing for choice, for those that really only want to work at that one Hospital, it may be worthwhile to pay extra for a BSN. There are significant effects to a BSN only requirement that even if we were fine with I'd at least want to see that they were dismissed after being considered, rather than just not recognized at all. For instance, at one point the majority of ADN Nursing students (I haven't seen more recent data) were "second career" students. I'd argue that this demographic is an important part of Nurse demographics. These students often have a previous bachelor's degree, and in some cases such as my local ADN program a previous bachelor's is actually required to even apply. These aren't people who can always commute or up and move to a BSN program. Most importantly though is the effect consolidating to BSN programs only would have on clinicals, which already struggle in many BSN markets.
It's comes down to economics but to attain a BSN with the way things are right now in the industry, you are all INSANE. Here's why, 2 persons gone to school to be nurses. One went to a nursing school for 2 years and attained ADN, graduated took NCLEX's and found employment starting at 23.50 plus shift diff. Their education cost them 2 years of dedication and a total of 60,000.00 for the education. This person by-the-way signed a contract with the nursing school to work for their hospital partner for 3 years so didn't have to pay no where near the above amount. The other person went to a University for 4 years and attained a BSN-RN, graduated took NCLEX's and found employment and the same hospital and paid $120,000.00 for the education. HR did not want to reward for the BSN when hiring but wanted BSN-RN's to fulfill the job description in ICU. Only because this person worked at this hospital as a CNA for 10 years prior to being a BSN-RN and had BA's in duel majors did this person receive 3% pay diff to start with the BSN in ICU. Now this is where it's gets crazy, 3% of 22.50 is .70¢ an hour and working 36 hours a week that comes to 1872 hours a year X .70¢= $1,310.00 pay diff a year. This 2 additional years of schooling cost $60,000.00 to attain the initials BSN, no life, no income, or sleep (because having to work and study). This 2nd person get not get a deal for free education for going to another school nor was offered a signing contract to work at this hospital for 3 years to get back the $60,000.00. not to mention it's interest and the lose of income while going to school for the additional 2 years it took to attain the BSN. It will take over 46 years to recoup that $60,000.00 for that 2 additional years of schooling. And to add salt to injury the first person after 2 years experience was able to transfer to ICU and receive a raise of $4.00 an hour and by next year will be free and clear of any loans while the BSN person will now start paying off the $120,000.00 in students loans along with it's interest. So what is the fix? Simple force a National policy that BNS RN receive 15% pay diff. Even at that percentage it would take about 10 years just to get back the investment the student made not counting the lost of income (and life) for the 2 years. Nurses you need to remember that their would not be a hospital in the United States if it wasn't for nurses. Hospital's would be nothing more than out-patient-day-clinics if it wasn't for nurses. Can you image for one second a Dr. providing bedside care for a half dozen patients at night and on the weekends? Neither can I. BSN nurses are not needed on every floor to do every job but when they are needed and their education is being required pay them.
If only it worked that way. Despite having practiced as a nurse in two countries four states as a staff nurses, and 3 or 4 others as a traveler, the ONLY place I have heard of a nurse with a BSN being paid differently than an ADN doing the same job is here on AN. Except for posters here I don't actually know anyone who works in a place where nurses doing the same job get paid more or less than their coworkers because of a degree.[/quote']
Really? It's common practice in all the hospitals in my area. Higher degree = higher pay. Also, specialty certification = more money (actually, this differential is usually more than the BSN or MSN differential).
Also haven't read the gazillion postings, but agree that if you spent time getting a higher degree it should reflect on your paycheck.
ADN education was a wonderful way to get into nursing and I did it on a full scholarship and then made sure to take the job at the hospital that reimbursed tuition at 100%. I was able to complete my degree basically free of charge. But, things have changed. I graduated as an ADN nurse and had no trouble getting a job right out of school. 2 years later, graduates from the same program could not get a job as most hospitals were "BSN required" to apply. It is no longer the affordable entry to professional life option it was -- at least in my part of the country.
Interesting perspective, however, yet not every BSN is 120,000 to get; that's relative to cost; hospital/org, and the nurse obtaining the education; especially if they have part time programs, where the money and time is the same; yet, coming out with a higher degree and more opportunities.
But I digress; I do think the perspective is the exception and not the rule...
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Interesting perspective, however, yet not every BSN is 120,000 to get; that's relative to cost; hospital/org, and the nurse obtaining the education; especially if they have part time programs, where the money and time is the same; yet, coming out with a higher degree and more opportunities.
But I digress; I do think the perspective is the exception and not the rule...
Regardless of the cost of the actual degree we have to consider the opportunity cost. In my area new grad starting pay is around $65K. If you earn an ADN in two years and then go to work the ADN is $130K less than the BSN. If it takes 3 years to get an ADN it's $65K cheaper. Other things to consider are a year or two more contributions to one's retirement account and employer subsidized heath insurance for a year or two.
Of course if an ADN grad is unable to get a nursing job after graduation then the point is moot. However all of the ADN students I have precepted in the last 2-3 years have all managed to get acute care nursing jobs within a few months of graduation. Some of them started out working in smaller, more rural hospitals and then were able to get jobs in the big city hospitals, despite the "BSN preferred" tag on their job listings. Some of them, usually those who already worked in big hospitals as CNAs, LPNs or paramedics, were able to be hired directly into the big city hospitals, often into specialty units like ICU and ER. Again in spite of "BSN preferred".
In my state the cash cost of an ADN is around $7K and can be done in two years at a public community college, though many stretch it out to 3 years for various reasons. The cash cost of a BSN is around $60K at a state university.
One of the unique programs offered at some of our community college ADN programs are part time night and weekend nursing school. In 4 years one can earn an ADN in the evenings and on weekends thus enabling many people to continue with full time employment. We love to hire these people. A person who has been successfully juggling their family, full time work, and nursing school for 4 years are very dedicated and bring superb prioritization and time management skills to their job.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Another advantage to the RN of entering nursing with an ADN vs BSN that we often don't think about is career advancement. In our nurse residency program we have had several nurses who went to high school together. The ones who went to ADN programs and get hired have already been working in our ICU for two years by the time their university BSN friends get hired. We have had several cases where a nurse is serving as a preceptor for her high school friend when they both started nursing school together. Those with ADNs have two solid years of ICU experience, have made around $130K over two years, usually have CCRN, and often are completing their RN to BSN or RN to MSN at the same moment their BSN peers are graduating from university and are preparing to take NCLEX.
Those who entered as ADNs are ready to serve as charge and preceptors in the ICU, do travel nursing, apply to CRNA or NP school, apply for flight nursing, or apply for jobs away from the bedside as assistant nurse managers, infection control, wound nurses, or any of the many other non-bedside nurse jobs available to experienced nurses.
I have seen this cause some resentment among certain new grad BSNs. As one put it to me:
"I worked very hard in high school to get the grades I needed to get into a good university. I missed out on a lot of fun stuff. I have tens of thousands of student loan debt and a $400/month payment on it. In college I worked hard to get good grades and missed out on lots of things to excel in a challenging nursing program. Now I come here and find I am behind everyone else!"
Regardless of the cost of the actual degree we have to consider the opportunity cost. In my area new grad starting pay is around $65K. If you earn an ADN in two years and then go to work the ADN is $130K less than the BSN. If it takes 3 years to get an ADN it's $65K cheaper. Other things to consider are a year or two more contributions to one's retirement account and employer subsidized heath insurance for a year or two. Of course if an ADN grad is unable to get a nursing job after graduation then the point is moot. However all of the ADN students I have precepted in the last 2-3 years have all managed to get acute care nursing jobs within a few months of graduation. Some of them started out working in smaller more rural hospitals and then were able to get jobs in the big city hospitals, despite the "BSN preferred" tag on their job listings. Some of them, usually those who already worked in big hospitals as CNAs, LPNs or paramedics, were able to be hired directly into the big city hospitals, often into specialty units like ICU and ER. Again in spite of "BSN preferred". In my state the cash cost of an ADN is around $7K and can be done in two years at a public community college, though many stretch it out to 3 years for various reasons. The cash cost of a BSN is around $60K at a state university. One of the unique programs offered at some of our community college ADN programs are part time night and weekend nursing school. In 4 years one can earn an ADN in the evenings and on weekends thus enabling many people to continue with full time employment. We love to hire these people. A person who has been successfully juggling their family, full time work, and nursing school for 4 years are very dedicated and bring superb prioritization and time management skills to their job.[/quote']
But that's my point; I was an LPN for 7 years before I was licensed as a BSN; I had no choice but to go to a part time program; which was offered by a university part time; the ADN program was full time during the week; plus I decided long ago, to me if I want to spend my time in school for 4 years, it will be a 4 yet degree, not for a 2 year degree.
I also have the uniqueness of having attended an ADN program first, then PN, then BSN; I found my BSN to be a fit for me; my transition into being an RN in some settings was more like a lateral transfer; that may be a disadvantage or it speaks to what my critical thinking skills are capable of. My salary, once the magical one year of employment occurs, goes up 13%; was similar when I worked at the hospital; it was 5, then 13%; to accommodate my experience as a LPN.
My total bills for my LPN and my BSN are 50,000; my BSN was 35,000 around the salary I made as a new grad LPN; so it's not an economic loss; especially as my salary goes up.
To make a bold statement that a BSN student loses out on money is not entirely true in certain areas; it may be 10-30 percent that may have that "loss"; there's no way of knowing unless the data is released on every student in every BSN and ADN and Diploma program for he past five years, then interviews or nurses willing to participate in releasing information on what actually happened their first 5 years of their career; THEN we can have hard economic data; an even then it would be relative; at least there would be a actual figure.
As a new grad RN, I have nothing to be resentful about...if anything, I know that education is an investment and if anything else it was worth every penny.
There are plenty of new grad in ANY program that is resentful; some wished they went to PN school before they entered, or became a CNA, etc; I've heard this from MANY RNs regardless of educational path that have NO experience.
Either way, there is a path to be built; it is up to the nurse to take charge of it. :yes;
MunoRN, RN
8,058 Posts
You quoted a "differential" of 6-8%. The term "differential" has a specific meaning in terms of wages. In general it implies a single basis on which someone is paid more than someone else, in other words, given 2 Nurses working the same job in the same facility, one is paid more based on shift, or in this case, level of education.
This is the most current data I'm aware of and shows ADN/BSN comprises 35%/47% of urban nurses, and 52%/34% of rural Nurses. That's more than just a token difference between the two, even if you assume some portion of those commute to areas of a higher cost of living. I certainly don't think we can assume it accounts for the entire difference, but I also don't think it amounts to no difference. Meaning the difference a degree makes in pay is anywhere from 0 to 10%.
BSN grads definitely have more room to move up, although not all Nurses will move up nor could they even if they all had PhD's. Even if we assume that half of all Nurses will move into management positions or pursue advanced degrees and will need BSN's, we'll already meeting that goal with about half of Nurses obtaining BSN's.
Currently there is actually very little difference, about 4%, in likelihood of finding a job between ADN's and BSN's. If we don't actively address the problem, then degree inflation could certainly harm us in the future.