If hospitals require 85% BSN...

[pete M]

Does that necessarily make ADN obsolete???

Supposing someone was in good standing with a Rehab Place as a CNA. Said person then gets an ADN and continues to work at said Rehab Place. Then the person attempts to apply at a Hospital.

How would having an ADN impact said persons chances of getting hired???

[smartnurse1982]

Hospitals are not the only type of setting that nurses work in.

Not sure why everyone glosses over that.

It seems every week when I read the local newspaper some hospital is either closing or merging.

Patients are being pushed out of hospitals sooner and thus into LTC and home care.

Ltc facilities and homecare agencies do not seem to be too concerned with the Bsn requirement,well,not now anyway.

[TC3200]

Where I live Diploma schools are still alive and well. I can think of 6 of them within 50 miles of each other. The best one is attached to a top 10 US News and World Report University/Hospital System. It's super competitive and those RN's really know their stuff due to so many hours of lecture, demanding clinical instructors, reams of patient paperwork and rigorous simulations.

And what most people don't realize is that not only do those diploma RN programs have all those hours of clinicials and lectures, but they also have just as much and sometimes MORE college coursework than many associate degree RN programs.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

And what most people don't realize is that not only do those diploma RN programs have all those hours of clinicials and lectures, but they also have just as much and sometimes MORE college coursework than many associate degree RN programs.

I think the next logical question, then, would be "why would someone enroll in a diploma program only to go through as much or more college coursework as an ADN program?"

I'm not terribly familiar with diploma programs today, but in the 'yesteryear' times, it was not college coursework. If, today, it IS expected that they take college-level courses (as you say, as much if not more) then why would they ever do it (diploma, that is)?

They may very well receive a terrific nursing education, but if employers aren't going to look at anything that doesn't involve a degree (and, specifically, a BSN much of the time), why would they do it?

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

Hospitals are not the only type of setting that nurses work in.

Not sure why everyone glosses over that.

It seems every week when I read the local newspaper some hospital is either closing or merging.

Patients are being pushed out of hospitals sooner and thus into LTC and home care.

Ltc facilities and homecare agencies do not seem to be too concerned with the Bsn requirement,well,not now anyway.

I think because a majority of nurses work in hospitals or outpatient settings. LTC actually doesn't use many RN's because they rely on LPN's and med aides, etc. Homecare I don't think you even get paid by the hour, just a flat rate per visit and you end up low paid, poor benefits, lots of wear and tear on your car and spending all your free time charting. I wouldn't recommend home care for security, because those jobs don't pay much to either the nurse or the agency. Homecare agencies close too, so do nursing homes just like hospitals! Plus you can get laid off from any nursing job in the real world, unless you are union then it has to go by seniority. Otherwise the ones being laid off will usually be the older, experienced nurses since they make more and may have higher healthcare costs.

[TC3200]

I think the next logical question, then, would be "why would someone enroll in a diploma program only to go through as much or more college coursework as an ADN program?"

I'm not terribly familiar with diploma programs today, but in the 'yesteryear' times, it was not college coursework. If, today, it IS expected that they take college-level courses (as you say, as much if not more) then why would they ever do it (diploma, that is)?

They may very well receive a terrific nursing education, but if employers aren't going to look at anything that doesn't involve a degree (and, specifically, a BSN much of the time), why would they do it?

I should have clarified: As much or more NON-NURSING college coursework as an associate degree.

WHY do people still do diploma school?

1. Money: Many people who are career-changers choose diploma school because they are displaced workers who are eligible for up to 24 months and say $30,000 training money plus perhaps extended unemployment during that time, if they quality for Trade Act Assistance funding. Because the training MUST BE completed in 24 months max, with no long break like having a complete summer off in college, the diploma and trade schools are a shoe-in for getting onto the Trade Act Training Provider list.

2. Money: Many older students and some younger ones who already have the nonRN college work done just enroll at diploma school. Some of those diploma schools cost only $12k or so. And you are an RN once you finish and pass NCLEX-RN.

3. Time: Some of those diploma schools as recently as 2012 were only 24 months start to finish, and that included all of the college work. One diploma school near me used to require all college work completed before starting the RN school, but just the diploma school part of it was 16 months (they've changed the program again, and it's longer now.) Then those grads immediately rolled right into a RN to BSN bridge degree that could be completed in 12-16 months. If you do the math, that is less total time than a 4 year BSN program. It works well for those who already have a degree or most of a college degree.

4. Proximity to home: As you know, many RN students don't move far from home to go to RN school. A lot of them just go to the nearest school.

5. Less competitive admissions standards. The diploma school I attended had first-come-first-served admissions, not competitive ranking. If you already had college degree of any kind, they'd look at your transcript and maybe waive the preadmission exam for you. If you didn't have a college degree, it was take the NLN PAX, get a 75% or greater, pay your admission fee, submit all transcripts, and you were enrolled.

6. Quantity and variety of clinical experiences, and a lot of hands-on experience in a hospital. A diploma school can do things like put its students into the OR for 2 days to observe heart surgery. Or do a clinical in whatever it has facilities for. A lot of diploma schools are highly regarded because their grads have already done a lot of things that college and university grads haven't seen, and they come out with more hours of actual OTJ training.

Just because you got a diploma or associate degree doesn't mean that your education stops there. If you don't get a job. or if you do, you just go on for BSN. With luck, you get a job and are working at RN wages $22/hr & up, fulltime w/ benefits, and the employer is also paying part or all of the tuition for your RB to BSN bridge. All of the college science and gened for the diploma program transfers right into BSN degrees.

I only know of one diploma RN from my cohort who isn't working as RN, but that's her choice. She just didn't put enough effort into trying to land a job, and she went back into retail, etc. but was starting her BSN this semester, last I heard.

[csrn2011]

I did a lot of research for a paper about ADN vs BSN last semester and associate level and diploma degree nurses are not going anywhere anytime soon. There's too great of a need.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

I should have clarified: As much or more NON-NURSING college coursework as an associate degree.

WHY do people still do diploma school?

1. Money: Many people who are career-changers choose diploma school because they are displaced workers who are eligible for up to 24 months and say $30,000 training money plus perhaps extended unemployment during that time, if they quality for Trade Act Assistance funding. Because the training MUST BE completed in 24 months max, with no long break like having a complete summer off in college, the diploma and trade schools are a shoe-in for getting onto the Trade Act Training Provider list.

2. Money: Many older students and some younger ones who already have the nonRN college work done just enroll at diploma school. Some of those diploma schools cost only $12k or so. And you are an RN once you finish and pass NCLEX-RN.

3. Time: Some of those diploma schools as recently as 2012 were only 24 months start to finish, and that included all of the college work. One diploma school near me used to require all college work completed before starting the RN school, but just the diploma school part of it was 16 months (they've changed the program again, and it's longer now.) Then those grads immediately rolled right into a RN to BSN bridge degree that could be completed in 12-16 months. If you do the math, that is less total time than a 4 year BSN program. It works well for those who already have a degree or most of a college degree.

4. Proximity to home: As you know, many RN students don't move far from home to go to RN school. A lot of them just go to the nearest school.

5. Less competitive admissions standards. The diploma school I attended had first-come-first-served admissions, not competitive ranking. If you already had college degree of any kind, they'd look at your transcript and maybe waive the preadmission exam for you. If you didn't have a college degree, it was take the NLN PAX, get a 75% or greater, pay your admission fee, submit all transcripts, and you were enrolled.

6. Quantity and variety of clinical experiences, and a lot of hands-on experience in a hospital. A diploma school can do things like put its students into the OR for 2 days to observe heart surgery. Or do a clinical in whatever it has facilities for. A lot of diploma schools are highly regarded because their grads have already done a lot of things that college and university grads haven't seen, and they come out with more hours of actual OTJ training.

Just because you got a diploma or associate degree doesn't mean that your education stops there. If you don't get a job. or if you do, you just go on for BSN. With luck, you get a job and are working at RN wages $22/hr & up, fulltime w/ benefits, and the employer is also paying part or all of the tuition for your RB to BSN bridge. All of the college science and gened for the diploma program transfers right into BSN degrees.

I only know of one diploma RN from my cohort who isn't working as RN, but that's her choice. She just didn't put enough effort into trying to land a job, and she went back into retail, etc. but was starting her BSN this semester, last I heard.

Thank you for taking the time for this post! I appreciate the information. We just have lots of ways to skin a cat :)

[Palliative Care, DNP]

I can only think of 1 diploma school in my state.

[csrn2011]

I think I read that there are only about 30 diploma programs in the US now.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

I did a lot of research for a paper about ADN vs BSN last semester and associate level and diploma degree nurses are not going anywhere anytime soon. There's too great of a need.

Unfortunately, there isn't a great need for nurses period. Yes, there is a shortage but employers continue to downsize and cut positions. They prefer to work short.

As a result, employers can afford to be selective and specify BSN only. There's more applicants than positions, and every year the new grad pool increases. If you want to have more options, get your BSN.

[csrn2011]

Not really. Yes they are and do downsize but there's still a need. Between obamacare (more people with insurance = more people seeking care), an aging population (again, more people seeking care) and an aging nurse workforce (people retiring) we do have a shortage that's just getting worse. With most (>50%) new grads coming from ADN programs, they're not going anywhere anytime soon. It would mean moving all nursing programs to 4 year universities and it's not possible at this point.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Not really. Yes they are and do downsize but there's still a need. Between obamacare (more people with insurance = more people seeking care), an aging population (again, more people seeking care) and an aging nurse workforce (people retiring) we do have a shortage that's just getting worse. With most (>50%) new grads coming from ADN programs, they're not going anywhere anytime soon. It would mean moving all nursing programs to 4 year universities and it's not possible at this point.

There is NO nursing shortage right now in most areas of the country. California has an almost 47% unemployment rate of nurses and most of them are new grads.