In the last staff meeting, NM states Dr. A has complained because the female nurses make eye contact with him. We were instructed to respect his (and other doctors) culture and NOT make eye contact or appear assertive. When asked to clarify assertive we were told assertive was "asking or suggesting something for the patients".
Excuse me! I am American and I am living in America! How come these doctors don't have to respect my culture? How come they don't have to respect me (I am a woman)?
Of course I will continue to make eye contact and I will continue to request things my patients need and I will continue to suggest things that the patient needs. I will continue to advocate for my patients. If the doc doesn't like it... tough crap. I live in America and have the rights afforded American women. I am not giving them up to stroke the ego of a bigot.
i do not believe this is the problem. i believe that too many non us citizens almost demand "we" become like the women from their countries and when that does not happen they take a trip to the supervisor’s office; because as you know many doctors have the god like attitude. it makes me sick to see how other cultures treat the women of their countries and if they love that so, or were raised in this environment, then they should have a doctors intelligence to say "hey, i'm going to america, so i ought to learn their customs, etc."; but no, they want us to accommodate their customs and i will not ever do this as this is our culture so learn it or leave it! enough is enough!!!!!
it's like the old saying says: when in rome, do as the romans do. wake up everyone and stand up for what is right because if you were in their country, believe me, you would be read the riot act if not worse!!!
problems like this do not have to be about intelligence. whatever culture you are brought up in feels normal to you. and the usual thinking (in the us as well) is that normal equals correct.
also (and again this is true in the us, too), people with higher income and education levels tend to have higher expectations that others will accommodate their wants and needs.
i don't like seeing the oppression that many women around the world have to live with, but i do know that some of it is changing. in the meantime, treating this one man as if he is the face of all that is wrong with the treatment of women is not likely to improve the situation.
to come at him with indignation and hostility solves nothing. yes, limits need to be set and some things need to be explained, but reading him the riot act is not likely to bring about anything positive. he might "toe the line" to the extent that he has to, but an angry and intimidating approach will probably only reinforce his old beliefs and generate further conflict, while a calm and practical attitude can spell out the need for cooperation and build connection at the same time.
i'm not talking about weak-kneed suggestions, here. he really ought to have firm expectations and accountability.
but whoever corrects and educates this doc should be able to set aside any malice and resentment. he needs to be given direction, but he isn't likely to take it well from someone who is seething. in that respect, he is pretty much just like everyone else.
In Australia many Aboriginal patients won't look you in the eye; it is a cultural trait. It is considered rude to look someone in the eye.
However a Dr working in a US facility should have to conform, when in Rome...do as the Romans do, especially if he/she wants to foster good relations! We had an English Dr once who kept saying 'well in England we do it this way..' I felt like saying; 'You're not in England anymore!'
He should not expect everyone around him to conform to his cultural standards; I think that is arrogant and wrong. Also women in many cultures are not respected or expected to have a voice or personality. We are nothing in many cultures; just shackled to a man in marriage, expected to have kids and shut up.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
i think a major part of the reason so many of us are willing to see this physician in a negative light is that he didn't discuss his cultural/gender complaints with one of the nurses who offended him, but went straight to her boss. we don't really know whether he spoke to another physician or someone from his own country to ascertain whether this was a cultural bias he was unaware of, and we don't really know (but can probably assume) that he went to the nurses' boss to "have her straighten them out." either the nurse manager is a clueless dunderhead, or he didn't ask her if he was misperceiving things, he just complained to mommy that the kids were picking on him.
i've worked with a number of physicians from cultures like his, and what sets apart my experiences with them from the one the op had is that they make an effort to treat american nurses as individuals and they ask questions. i came back from a long medical leave several years ago, and met a physician from a similar culture for the first time when we were working together on a night shift. evidently he was feeling a little raw, because after i asked him about his country and what he missed the most and hinted that i'd love to taste a native dish, he asked me why all the other nurses hated him so much. we had a nice long chat and as you might guess, it was cultural clash. the nurses perceived him as being high handed and arrogant; he perceived them as being "uppity" and too aggressive. each thought the other was extrememly rude. it was a slow night and we talked a long time.
a few nights later, the chief resident sought me out and said "i want to thank you for saving me from having to do something i really didn't want to do." it turns out he was tasked with "straightening this guy out" or starting the disciplinary process . . . and my conversation about differences in our cultures had straightened the guy out so he didn't have to.
however frightening and humiliating it was for my colleague, he asked for help in interpreting the negative reactions he was getting. he didn't go over the nurses' heads and try to get them into trouble or make someone "straighten them out." and once he and i had had the conversation, his behavior toward nurses -- especially female nurses -- changed dramatically. i'm sure his behavior towards his wife and daughters didn't change, but that's not really my business.
the physician in the op's scenerio doesn't seem to have taken it upon himself to have attempted to figure it out, work it out or educate himself on his own. face it; you don't go to someone's boss and complain about them unless you're hoping to get them into trouble or don't mind if you do.
i think a major part of the reason so many of us are willing to see this physician in a negative light is that he didn't discuss his cultural/gender complaints with one of the nurses who offended him, but went straight to her boss. we don't really know whether he spoke to another physician or someone from his own country to ascertain whether this was a cultural bias he was unaware of, and we don't really know (but can probably assume) that he went to the nurses' boss to "have her straighten them out." either the nurse manager is a clueless dunderhead, or he didn't ask her if he was misperceiving things, he just complained to mommy that the kids were picking on him.
i've worked with a number of physicians from cultures like his, and what sets apart my experiences with them from the one the op had is that they make an effort to treat american nurses as individuals and they ask questions. i came back from a long medical leave several years ago, and met a physician from a similar culture for the first time when we were working together on a night shift. evidently he was feeling a little raw, because after i asked him about his country and what he missed the most and hinted that i'd love to taste a native dish, he asked me why all the other nurses hated him so much. we had a nice long chat and as you might guess, it was cultural clash. the nurses perceived him as being high handed and arrogant; he perceived them as being "uppity" and too aggressive. each thought the other was extrememly rude. it was a slow night and we talked a long time.
a few nights later, the chief resident sought me out and said "i want to thank you for saving me from having to do something i really didn't want to do." it turns out he was tasked with "straightening this guy out" or starting the disciplinary process . . . and my conversation about differences in our cultures had straightened the guy out so he didn't have to.
however frightening and humiliating it was for my colleague, he asked for help in interpreting the negative reactions he was getting. he didn't go over the nurses' heads and try to get them into trouble or make someone "straighten them out." and once he and i had had the conversation, his behavior toward nurses -- especially female nurses -- changed dramatically. i'm sure his behavior towards his wife and daughters didn't change, but that's not really my business.
the physician in the op's scenerio doesn't seem to have taken it upon himself to have attempted to figure it out, work it out or educate himself on his own. face it; you don't go to someone's boss and complain about them unless you're hoping to get them into trouble or don't mind if you do.
i agree with most of what you said here, except for saying that we can "assume" the context of the doctor's remarks to the nurse manager. in fact, it makes no more sense to assume that than it would for him to assume that nurses are challenging his authority, when they suggest that he give them an order for prn tylenol. it's quite possible that he spoke to her because he thought she might be able to give him some insight into american nurses.
I respectfully disagree with some of it though. When I worked in large, teaching hospitals we liaised with many different Drs from various cultures and - to put it bluntly - most of them (not all) were absolute pigs in their attitudes towards women, especially the nurses. In their country as one guy explained to me, (can't remember his country of origin) the nurses do NOT dare question them, that is why they hate it. This guy also told me his wife wouldn't dare question him either - that is their cultural way. I don't agree with it and it caused a lot of trouble, but they expect absolute obedience. I blame the recruiters for not thinking of these problems before inviting these people over. Some of them just don't fit into the western way of thinking.
And you should respect the culture and people you are working in/with - isn't that common courtesy? Foreigners shouldn't expect us to change for them - it just doesn't work that way. And the women's lib are up in arms over some of their attitudes - they are just simply outdated nowadays.
I only get passionate about this because of the refugee women we used to get coming in for plastic/reconstructive surgery who had been tortured by their husbands, burnt, beaten, had horrific scars - I could go on. They were lucky they weren't murdered. And their stories of escaping from these men with their children were absolutely heartbreaking. I can't count the number of times I sat with a crying woman who had to leave her children behind and cried her eyes out, waiting to see our Aussie Drs to get some relief from their pain.
I hope people wouldn't kowtow to these arrogant Drs - they need educating about different cultural traits and to be taught their behaviour is not acceptable, under any circumstances. Otherwise, we go backwards with all we have tried to achieve with regards to women's emancipation.
Also (and again this is true in the US, too), people with higher income and education levels tend to have higher expectations that others will accommodate their wants and needs.
Excellent point!
To come at him with indignation and hostility solves nothing. Yes, limits need to be set and some things need to be explained, but reading him the riot act is not likely to bring about anything positive. He might "toe the line" to the extent that he has to, but an angry and intimidating approach will probably only reinforce his old beliefs and generate further conflict, while a calm and practical attitude can spell out the need for cooperation and build connection at the same time.
Is anyone on this thread suggesting he be treated this way? Many are venting here, but I imagine would NEVER address a doctor (or anyone else) in the same manner face-to-face.
But whoever corrects and educates this doc should be able to set aside any malice and resentment. He needs to be given direction, but he isn't likely to take it well from someone who is seething. In that respect, he is pretty much just like everyone else.
Nobody should be expected to take direction well from someone who is seething as they give it. I don't think anyone was suggesting that happen. I agree with you that a calm attitude would be best. It brings to mind the wisdom of Proverbs 15:1: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."
Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.
What I found offensive was the simple fact that an employer in the USA would tell an employee that they needed to act submissive.
The race/nationality does not matter.
As a female citizen of this country I am not required to be submissive. Polite, cordial, follow policies......sure.
The offensive thing to me is that any US employer would be stupid enough to even say this in a meeting. Does HR know? I would be shocked if they were not horrified.
What I found offensive was the simple fact that an employer in the USA would tell an employee that they needed to act submissive.
The race/nationality does not matter.
As a female citizen of this country I am not required to be submissive. Polite, cordial, follow policies......sure.
The offensive thing to me is that any US employer would be stupid enough to even say this in a meeting. Does HR know? I would be shocked if they were not horrified.
Yes, I think everyone agrees the NM dropped the ball on this one.
I respectfully disagree with some of it though. When I worked in large, teaching hospitals we liaised with many different Drs from various cultures and - to put it bluntly - most of them (not all) were absolute pigs in their attitudes towards women, especially the nurses. In their country as one guy explained to me, (can't remember his country of origin) the nurses do NOT dare question them, that is why they hate it. This guy also told me his wife wouldn't dare question him either - that is their cultural way. I don't agree with it and it caused a lot of trouble, but they expect absolute obedience. I blame the recruiters for not thinking of these problems before inviting these people over. Some of them just don't fit into the western way of thinking.
And you should respect the culture and people you are working in/with - isn't that common courtesy? Foreigners shouldn't expect us to change for them - it just doesn't work that way. And the women's lib are up in arms over some of their attitudes - they are just simply outdated nowadays.
I only get passionate about this because of the refugee women we used to get coming in for plastic/reconstructive surgery who had been tortured by their husbands, burnt, beaten, had horrific scars - I could go on. They were lucky they weren't murdered. And their stories of escaping from these men with their children were absolutely heartbreaking. I can't count the number of times I sat with a crying woman who had to leave her children behind and cried her eyes out, waiting to see our Aussie Drs to get some relief from their pain.
I hope people wouldn't kowtow to these arrogant Drs - they need educating about different cultural traits and to be taught their behaviour is not acceptable, under any circumstances. Otherwise, we go backwards with all we have tried to achieve with regards to women's emancipation.
It sounds like you're letting your unrelated past experience color your attitude toward this doctor. Let's be fair: we have no evidence that he's treated anyone like a pig, that he tortures his wife, or that he boasts that his wife wouldn't dare challenge him. And to assume that this doctor engages in antisocial behavior, just because he told a nurse manager that he's uncomfortable with nurses looking him in the eye and asking him to order this and such for his patient, is as unfair as it would be for him to assume that all American nurses are fat and anti-intellectual.
No one is arguing that he shouldn't "respect" U.S. culture. But a person has to get to know a culture----the subtle little behavior clues and expectations as well as the obvious ones----before s/he can fit into it seamlessly. And learning to negotiate a foreign culture can be as tricky as learning its language, despite the currently fashionable belief that both these skills can be mastered within a few months.
Here is where you seem confused NocturneRN. It is imperative that this MD be able to carryout the duties of his position from day one. There is no room for compromise. Lives are at stake. The world of a hospital cannot stop and carefully tip toe around just one maladjusted MD who is unable to effectively communicate and collaborate with other professionals. He, is quite expendable when one considers the risks of his employ. As they say, there are always many others to choose from who would better fill his role. This, especially when the hospital's reputation will be ruined should the media or EEOC be notified. I certainly hope steps have been taken to do just that.
Here is where you seem confused NocturneRN. It is imperative that this MD be able to carryout the duties of his position from day one. There is no room for compromise. Lives are at stake. The world of a hospital cannot stop and carefully tip toe around just one maladjusted MD who is unable to effectively communicate and collaborate with other professionals. He, is quite expendable when one considers the risks of his employ. As they say, there are always many others to choose from who would better fill his role. This, especially when the hospital's reputation will be ruined should the media or EEOC be notified. I certainly hope steps have been taken to do just that.
No, I agree that he needs to carry out his duties and save all those lives at stake. But what has that to do with the fact that he's uncomfortable with nurses looking him in the eye and (in his eyes, at least) telling him what to order for his patients?
Let me ask you this: if you're that worried about the life-or-death situations in that hospital, why are you so quick to assume that this doctor is no good? Don't you have any interest at all in trying to resolve the breakdown in communication?
Seems to me that that's what a strong, assertive nurse would do. Immediately assuming the worst about him, and trying to punish him for expressing his frustration instead of looking for ways to define (and eventually solve) the problem, serves no one's purposes in the long run.
A good doctor would want the best for his patients and his colleagues.
The only thing I might suggest if I was hospital administration is that he be strongly encouraged to get psychological help to hopefully resolve his problems in working with others. While doing so, he should step down off service. This to save the hospital's reputation from ruin, and possibly his ability to practice.
We are adults in this world. As adults we cannot expect to receive the same hand-holding as children.
rn/writer, RN
9 Articles; 4,168 Posts
problems like this do not have to be about intelligence. whatever culture you are brought up in feels normal to you. and the usual thinking (in the us as well) is that normal equals correct.
also (and again this is true in the us, too), people with higher income and education levels tend to have higher expectations that others will accommodate their wants and needs.
i don't like seeing the oppression that many women around the world have to live with, but i do know that some of it is changing. in the meantime, treating this one man as if he is the face of all that is wrong with the treatment of women is not likely to improve the situation.
to come at him with indignation and hostility solves nothing. yes, limits need to be set and some things need to be explained, but reading him the riot act is not likely to bring about anything positive. he might "toe the line" to the extent that he has to, but an angry and intimidating approach will probably only reinforce his old beliefs and generate further conflict, while a calm and practical attitude can spell out the need for cooperation and build connection at the same time.
i'm not talking about weak-kneed suggestions, here. he really ought to have firm expectations and accountability.
but whoever corrects and educates this doc should be able to set aside any malice and resentment. he needs to be given direction, but he isn't likely to take it well from someone who is seething. in that respect, he is pretty much just like everyone else.