In the last staff meeting, NM states Dr. A has complained because the female nurses make eye contact with him. We were instructed to respect his (and other doctors) culture and NOT make eye contact or appear assertive. When asked to clarify assertive we were told assertive was "asking or suggesting something for the patients".
Excuse me! I am American and I am living in America! How come these doctors don't have to respect my culture? How come they don't have to respect me (I am a woman)?
Of course I will continue to make eye contact and I will continue to request things my patients need and I will continue to suggest things that the patient needs. I will continue to advocate for my patients. If the doc doesn't like it... tough crap. I live in America and have the rights afforded American women. I am not giving them up to stroke the ego of a bigot.
Any time we communicate with someone else we are adapting to each other as we learn the give and take point of each person. The goal here is not bludgeon the M.D. with our superiority because we are in our own country, the goal is to provide superior care for the patient. Yes it seems counter intuitive for us not to make eye contact when asking questions or making suggestions, but if you won't give any ground at all then more than likely he won't give any either leaving your patient out in the cold. Aside from being childish, it defeats the purpose of M.D./ Nurse collaboration. The person to be chided here is the NM for allowing this behavior to continue w/o cluing him in that he will have to adjust too.
Do you honestly think that a mere NM can clue him in? This needs to be done by the Chief of his service. Hopefully, the Chief is a male.
Also, another thought - this need not be a black and white, all or none, feminism issue.
Perhaps OP can gently, gently, ever so deferentially approach this doctor and try to get to know him a little. Try to offer him a chair, or to find his charts, or say she hopes he is well today, or just something to show him some courtesy.
Yeah, I know that is old fashioned. however, kind gestures could very well reap a kinder attitude from him. Perhaps even offering a little "apology", stating that she has been informed that he finds certain behaviors disrespectful and reassuring him that absolutely no disrespect was intended, explaining how much she desires only to give good care to his patients, how much she knows he can teach her and the other staff and how much they need his knowledge and expertise so that they can give the best care to his patients, etc. You know. It's not all blarney and it could work wonders.
Just curious - where are people supposed to look if not at his eyes? What country is he from?
It seems like maybe there is a lot of room for growth and teaching at this hopsital with regard to inter-cultural matters. Those coming from other cultures need much better prep. And it couldn't hurt to teach those who will be working with them.
Speak for yourself, please. I know exactly who I am, and what the U.S. is. It's a nation that has traditionally welcomed diversity, and fought hard to overcome the ignorance and bigotry of our slaveholding and Indian extermination past.
If we're truly a strong people, then it's not going to destroy the fabric of our society if we're forced to associate with (gasp!) non-Christians, or people with different ways of speaking, and different ways of doing things. But it might require that we actually examine problems, and determine causes and contributing factors, before rushing to condemn those who aren't conforming to our expectations.
I don't think we've really welcomed diversity. I think the various immigrants who have arrived at various times have largely been exploited by those who were already established. Chinese in San Francisco and building the railroads while being seriously limited and harassed legally; Blacks, of course, slave and Jim Crow; Irish, Italian, Lithuanians, Jews, women, children, the list goes on. Sweatshops, animal slaughterhouses and packinghouses, mining industry, construction, trash haulers, longshoremen, any type of hard manual labor - all of these have been the scene of exploitation of poor immigrants. And don't forget the native Americans. Any type of domestic work - nannies, housekeepers, maids, body servants, gardeners, chauffeurs, doormen, elevator operators, on and on - these are jobs traditionally filled by desperately poor people who are struggling to just survive.
Yes, I think the "welcome" was often really exploitation. Not all but enough employers preyed upon the huddled masses who yearned to breathe free, upon the teeming refuse of foreign wretched shores. It all added up to cheap labor and big profits for the employers, bare survival for the laborers.
Or he can just go practice where the culture is more agreeable to him. In America, eye contact means you are being attentive and forthright. When you look away and avoid eye contact, it indicates deception and sometimes shame. He will NEVER be able to change everyone around him in America to behave the way he prefers, unless he moves someplace where avoiding eye contact is the norm. Probably wherever he learned this cultural norm is where he'll be most comfortable.
Of course, some people who are just very shy find it hard to make eye contact and they are not being deceptive.
I am more offended by the actions of your nurse manager. Why didn't she stick up for her staff instead of acting as a mouthpiece for some arrogant physician?. I don't mind respecting others' cultures as long as it doesn't require me to act in a way that is not true to myself. In this case, Doc A needs to understand that the culture here is different and he is just going to have to get over it.
Arrogance? Are you sure? Why not just his culture?
To avert your eyes and 'not be assertive' is to behave SUBMISSIVELY. The women of this country have spent nearly 50 years striving to eradicate this kind of crap in the American workplace and now folks are trying to bring it back under the cloak of 'cultural sensitivity'?
If you all head down this road, where will it stop? What if a Dr. from Japan were to join the staff? Would he be offended if the nurses here refused to serve him tea?
Honestly I don't know if the NM can clue him in or not, I was not there. I do however agree with you that a little kindness can go a long way at paving the way for how things should be.
Do you honestly think that a mere NM can clue him in? This needs to be done by the Chief of his service. Hopefully, the Chief is a male.
Also, another thought - this need not be a black and white, all or none, feminism issue.
Perhaps OP can gently, gently, ever so deferentially approach this doctor and try to get to know him a little. Try to offer him a chair, or to find his charts, or say she hopes he is well today, or just something to show him some courtesy.
Yeah, I know that is old fashioned. however, kind gestures could very well reap a kinder attitude from him. Perhaps even offering a little "apology", stating that she has been informed that he finds certain behaviors disrespectful and reassuring him that absolutely no disrespect was intended, explaining how much she desires only to give good care to his patients, how much she knows he can teach her and the other staff and how much they need his knowledge and expertise so that they can give the best care to his patients, etc. You know. It's not all blarney and it could work wonders.
Just curious - where are people supposed to look if not at his eyes? What country is he from?
It seems like maybe there is a lot of room for growth and teaching at this hopsital with regard to inter-cultural matters. Those coming from other cultures need much better prep. And it couldn't hurt to teach those who will be working with them.
Absolutely. And the skills acquired thereby useful in dealing with foreign patients, too----not just foreign doctors.
To avert your eyes and 'not be assertive' is to behave SUBMISSIVELY. The women of this country have spent nearly 50 years striving to eradicate this kind of crap in the American workplace and now folks are trying to bring it back under the cloak of 'cultural sensitivity'?
If you all head down this road, where will it stop? What if a Dr. from Japan were to join the staff? Would he be offended if the nurses here refused to serve him tea?
This is just wrong...
More than 50 years, surely.
I imagine there were some brave women who stood up for themselves in the male-dominated American workplace of the pre-feminist era...but I think the majority of the relatively few who were allowed to participate in it at all, went along to get along while their tongues bled from biting them so hard.
I wonder what you might say in Nicaragua, getting cat-called by all the male docs, and when you asked for a change, they responded, "We're Nicaraguan! This is our country! We don't have to humor your culture!"
Just saying....it goes both ways.
Hence why I am not licensed nor do I practice in Nicaragua. If I went to their country I would be prepared to modify my public behavior to fit in with their culture. Just saying... that goes both ways, also. I would not accept catcalls as professional behavior in any culture. Grace and professionalism is universal. If they want the benefit of my knowledge, experience and work ethic, they can treat me with respect. Otherwise, answer your own call lights and empty your own patient's bedpans, pass meds do the assessments, etc...... And get over yourself.
i'm going to have to ask everyone to play nice and stop the barbed comments. several people have complained, and it's questionable that this is even a useful conversation at this point. please remember to post in a manner that is polite and respectful, and if you find a post offensive, report it to the moderating team or the administrators rather than taking on the other member personally. thank you.
thank you for the reminder! some of the posts come off like scoldings of others' opinions, which isn't helpful.
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
Do you honestly think that a mere NM can clue him in? This needs to be done by the Chief of his service. Hopefully, the Chief is a male.
Also, another thought - this need not be a black and white, all or none, feminism issue.
Perhaps OP can gently, gently, ever so deferentially approach this doctor and try to get to know him a little. Try to offer him a chair, or to find his charts, or say she hopes he is well today, or just something to show him some courtesy.
Yeah, I know that is old fashioned. however, kind gestures could very well reap a kinder attitude from him. Perhaps even offering a little "apology", stating that she has been informed that he finds certain behaviors disrespectful and reassuring him that absolutely no disrespect was intended, explaining how much she desires only to give good care to his patients, how much she knows he can teach her and the other staff and how much they need his knowledge and expertise so that they can give the best care to his patients, etc. You know. It's not all blarney and it could work wonders.
Just curious - where are people supposed to look if not at his eyes? What country is he from?
It seems like maybe there is a lot of room for growth and teaching at this hopsital with regard to inter-cultural matters. Those coming from other cultures need much better prep. And it couldn't hurt to teach those who will be working with them.