How many unvaccinated coworkers are you aware of?

iNurs5, CNA · Sep 18, 2021

To answer your question, which is I forget to include, almost everyone is vaccinated. We have very high covid-19 cases.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 18, 2021

On 9/13/2021 at 12:43 PM, DaveICURN said:

Our hospital went for the mandate, and will be separating employee as of 10/15.

We have 1 who is applying for a medical exemption. She has had reactions to other routine vaccines and does not receive any annual renewals.

I am glad that we have a very accepting air of personal autonomy on our unit. We have always strived for communication and comradery above any tribal politics. We don't care, vaxxed or no, just be as safe as you can and make the best choice for you.

Dave,

It must be nice to work at a hospital with the luxury of adequate staffing that affords them the ability to separate staff that are not taking the vaccine.

I for one am pro-vax and anti-mandate. Got my vax the second day it was offered (12/23/20).

That said, we worked w/o a vaccine for almost a year. Had low infection rates among staff due to proper use of PPE and handwashing etc. Cannot condone firing qualified nurses who are not vaxxed when we have critical shortages in most of the country. I think we continue with PPE and such and frequent testing in order to keep our nurses. Just my two cents.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Sep 18, 2021

2 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Dave,

It must be nice to work at a hospital with the luxury of adequate staffing that affords them the ability to separate staff that are not taking the vaccine.

I for one am pro-vax and anti-mandate. Got my vax the second day it was offered (12/23/20).

That said, we worked w/o a vaccine for almost a year. Had low infection rates among staff due to proper use of PPE and handwashing etc. Cannot condone firing qualified nurses who are not vaxxed when we have critical shortages in most of the country. I think we continue with PPE and such and frequent testing in order to keep our nurses. Just my two cents.

Vaccine cheap. Testing expensive. The Delta virus is about 1000X more contagious than it's predecessors. Which path would you choose if you were a hospital administrator? We have already spent billions of dollars caring for the unvaccinated. They are keeping the country at it's knees. This is a no-brainer.

ErinDel, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 18, 2021

9 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Dave,

It must be nice to work at a hospital with the luxury of adequate staffing that affords them the ability to separate staff that are not taking the vaccine.

I for one am pro-vax and anti-mandate. Got my vax the second day it was offered (12/23/20).

That said, we worked w/o a vaccine for almost a year. Had low infection rates among staff due to proper use of PPE and handwashing etc. Cannot condone firing qualified nurses who are not vaxxed when we have critical shortages in most of the country. I think we continue with PPE and such and frequent testing in order to keep our nurses. Just my two cents.

Absolutely agree with this..

toomuchbaloney · Sep 18, 2021

7 minutes ago, Erindel RN said:

Absolutely agree with this..

Hospital-Acquired SARS-Cov-2 Infections in Patients: Inevitable Conditions or Medical Malpractice?

Quote

Hospital-acquired COVID-19 represents a serious public health issue, which is a problem that could create reluctance of patients to seek hospital treatment for fear of becoming infected. Healthcare personnel should do all that is necessary to address the problem and prevent further spreading, such as rigorous compliance with all procedures for containing the spread.

Bold mine.

Quote

From a medico-legal point of view, COVID-19 has brought significant repercussions and implications [46,47]. Hospital-acquired COVID-19 from nosocomial transmission could probably be a topic of medico-legal dispute seeing that the hospitals and the personnel could be held responsible. It is important to know if healthcare professionals had implemented all the necessary measures to prevent the risk of contagion and if the infection could have been “inevitable” (not due to errors by healthcare personnel) or “avoidable” (related to healthcare responsibility). Specifically, HAIs require an investigation of how an infection occurred and whether it could have been avoided through measures to prevent infectious risk [48]. Compliance with all protective procedures is fundamental when it comes to professional liability claims. On the contrary, failure to comply with these measures is often viewed as negligence and medical fault [48].

Gambling with your own health by refusing to vaccinate is one thing. Gambling with the health of people needing medical care is quite another.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 18, 2021

3 minutes ago, subee said:

Vaccine cheap. Testing expensive. The Delta virus is about 1000X more contagious than it's predecessors. Which path would you choose if you were a hospital administrator? We have already spent billions of dollars caring for the unvaccinated. They are keeping the country at it's knees. This is a no-brainer.

No-brainer? Did you actually read my post? Or are you so short sighted you saw my support for those unvaxxed RN's and lost your mind? Sick of people listening to politically inspired talking points. When I speak to physicians from multiple disciplines who agree the vaccine is important, but also want to hear about acquired immunity that is being squelched, it makes me have pause.

Now, to my main point. I am concerned about having the staff to care for the patients. In your controlled world of anesthesia, perhaps you lose sight of the bigger picture. When I have nurses bring their family members to my ED because our wait time is 10 hours and the wait time at their ED was 22 hours, that's a problem. It only gets worse when we lose staff. Where I work, we are losing them to traveling for the BIG MONEY. We are short 4-6 nurses every shift. That means its dangerous for patients. Lose more RN's due to the vax mandate and that will exacerbate the issue and increase already long wait times and patient ratios, which makes it more dangerous to the patients. The shortage is not only in the ED, but on virtually every floor and ICU. I know we have blocks of rooms closed because we cannot staff them. The pandemic is not the issue, its staffing.

So your solution and those like you is FIRE EM!! Well, who is going to fill their spot? You? The RN's in administration? I think not. These same nurses were HEROS in December 2020 but now pariah. How sick and demented is that?

Of course the vax is cheaper than testing. BUT, the vax does NOT stop the spread in its tracks, so it is not the be all, end all. It does not even provide 100% protection for the person receiving it. It does mitigate the effects to a great degree which is why I 100% support people getting it and tell my adult family and friends to get vaccinated. I do not and will not ridicule and berate them or co-workers who do not as it is not beneficial.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 18, 2021

3 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Hospital-Acquired SARS-Cov-2 Infections in Patients: Inevitable Conditions or Medical Malpractice?

Bold mine.

Gambling with your own health by refusing to vaccinate is one thing. Gambling with the health of people needing medical care is quite another.

Points well made. That said, if there are no staff there to spread it, it won't spread either. The shortage is real. The shortage is getting worse. Look at the money they are offering for travel RN positions. Again, I support the vax, but if you don't have nurses, you won't need to worry about spreading the virus. And shortages will increase ratios. That causes it's own problems with safety. Their are plenty of studies that show negative impact to patient outcomes based on increased RN to Patient ratios. So, which is worse? IDK, just throwing it out there.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 18, 2021

5 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

These same nurses were HEROS in December 2020 but now pariah. How sick and demented is that?

Is pretty sick and demented that self-centered nurses would refuse vaccination after being called heroes for simply showing up to work. They clearly aren't heroes, they aren't even interested in taking the safe, effective, cheap and convenient step of vaccination to protect others. That failure to vaccinate makers it difficult to consider them health professionals much less hero level health professional.

Natural immunity is not long term protection against infection illness or transmission for any of the covid illnesses. So the unvaccinated are planning to gamble with reinfection every season.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 18, 2021

5 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Points well made. That said, if there are no staff there to spread it, it won't spread either. The shortage is real. The shortage is getting worse. Look at the money they are offering for travel RN positions. Again, I support the vax, but if you don't have nurses, you won't need to worry about spreading the virus. And shortages will increase ratios. That causes it's own problems with safety. Their are plenty of studies that show negative impact to patient outcomes based on increased RN to Patient ratios. So, which is worse? IDK, just throwing it out there.

Which is worse? It is demonstrably worse for healthcare staff to intentionally refuse to vaccinate with safe and effective vaccines thereby placing themselves and patients in jeopardy. They are choosing to refuse vaccination in the absence of medical contraindication. They are choosing to remain unvaccinated even when there are direct negative consequences for themselves.

That is an example of extremist ideology and thinking adversely affecting the ability of an individual to comply with public health and employer mandates. These unvaccinated people are not considering their part in creating a difficult staffing situation, they see themselves as victims.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 18, 2021

38 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Is pretty sick and demented that self-centered nurses would refuse vaccination after being called heroes for simply showing up to work. They clearly aren't heroes, they aren't even interested in taking the safe, effective, cheap and convenient step of vaccination to protect others. That failure to vaccinate makers it difficult to consider them health professionals much less hero level health professional.

Natural immunity is not long term protection against infection illness or transmission for any of the covid illnesses. So the unvaccinated are planning to gamble with reinfection every season.

First, I never liked the term Hero, but that was MSM calling them that. As a fully vaccinated Trauma Center ED RN, I would like to know why smug folks like you seem to be the know it all's that refuse to consider ANY information that goes against what the MSM puts out.

Oh by the way, the vaccine saves oneself, not others. It mitigates the effects on me, but does not prevent me from spreading it. Not my opinion, but fact as stated by the CDC. That said, yes, I agree 100%, people should voluntarily get vaccinated. 100% against mandated vaccines for this particular virus.

Other countries have data that both compliments and contradicts data what we have in the U.S., but we are so afraid to bring it up. Anyone who dares disagree with "Only the vaccine can save us" is instantly labeled as selfish, stupid, self-centered, unprofessional, etc. I work with multiple medical disciplines in a teaching hospital. I have listened to highly educated physicians present multiple points of views with excellent data to support their varying positions. I have listened to multiple MDs state emphatically they will not let their children be vaccinated. That causes me to stop and think. These are not quacks. These are not conspiracy theory nut jobs. ANd with regard to natural/acquired immunity, we don't know how long it lasts, just as we don't know how long the vaccine protection will last, hence the discussion of boosters. So, why be so cavalier in discarding it? I brought it up because of the multitude of physicians who have, not because of my knowledge. But, why is it squashed so quickly?

It's ashame so many have become so closed mined and unable to see more than one view point. What is worse is the hate this whole issue has brought to the surface. I for one would GLADLY work alongside ANY of these "selfish" providers as long as they are wearing their PPE.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 18, 2021

1 hour ago, RJMDilts said:

First, I never liked the term Hero, but that was MSM calling them that. As a fully vaccinated Trauma Center ED RN, I would like to know why smug folks like you seem to be the know it all's that refuse to consider ANY information that goes against what the MSM puts out.

Oh by the way, the vaccine saves oneself, not others. It mitigates the effects on me, but does not prevent me from spreading it. Not my opinion, but fact as stated by the CDC. That said, yes, I agree 100%, people should voluntarily get vaccinated. 100% against mandated vaccines for this particular virus.

Other countries have data that both compliments and contradicts data what we have in the U.S., but we are so afraid to bring it up. Anyone who dares disagree with "Only the vaccine can save us" is instantly labeled as selfish, stupid, self-centered, unprofessional, etc. I work with multiple medical disciplines in a teaching hospital. I have listened to highly educated physicians present multiple points of views with excellent data to support their varying positions. I have listened to multiple MDs state emphatically they will not let their children be vaccinated. That causes me to stop and think. These are not quacks. These are not conspiracy theory nut jobs. ANd with regard to natural/acquired immunity, we don't know how long it lasts, just as we don't know how long the vaccine protection will last, hence the discussion of boosters. So, why be so cavalier in discarding it? I brought it up because of the multitude of physicians who have, not because of my knowledge. But, why is it squashed so quickly?

It's ashame so many have become so closed mined and unable to see more than one view point. What is worse is the hate this whole issue has brought to the surface. I for one would GLADLY work alongside ANY of these "selfish" providers as long as they are wearing their PPE.

What MSM are you referring to? Most responsible health professionals base their vaccination discussions and decision making upon the credible science and data and recommendations of the previously identified and funded experts.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood that vaccinated individuals will either becomes infected or will spread the disease if they are infected. That's what the credible science says. Do you know that vaccination protects the larger community through the mechanism of herd immunity?

Your anecdotal evidence of multiple physicians saying this or that is not evidence of anything. Most physicians are vaccinated against covid and promote vaccination.

We know that coronaviruses have never been suspected of creating or causing long term immunity in affected adults. We know that this covid is also not responsible for long term natural immunity after infection and as the previously infected remain unvaccinated we will see the clinical evidence of reinfection increase. Those previously infected people are vulnerable to reinfection and are not necessarily safe from serious illness, disability or death from subsequent infection. Without vaccination that will be an annual gamble for the unvaccinated. An annual booster will diminish that risk.

It's easy to associate 'hateful' intentions with those who push back so passionately against common sense public health recommendations, credible science and data because of a belief system that puts themselves and others at risk.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 18, 2021

51 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

What MSM are you referring to? Most responsible health professionals base their vaccination discussions and decision making upon the credible science and data and recommendations of the previously identified and funded experts.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood that vaccinated individuals will either becomes infected or will spread the disease if they are infected. That's what the credible science says. Do you know that vaccination protects the larger community through the mechanism of herd immunity?

Your anecdotal evidence of multiple physicians saying this or that is not evidence of anything. Most physicians are vaccinated against covid and promote vaccination.

We know that coronaviruses have never been suspected of creating or causing long term immunity in affected adults. We know that this covid is also not responsible for long term natural immunity after infection and as the previously infected remain unvaccinated we will see the clinical evidence of reinfection increase. Those previously infected people are vulnerable to reinfection and are not necessarily safe from serious illness, disability or death from subsequent infection. Without vaccination that will be an annual gamble for the unvaccinated. An annual booster will diminish that risk.

It's easy to associate 'hateful' intentions with those who push back so passionately against common sense public health recommendations, credible science and data because of a belief system that puts themselves and others at risk.

What MSM are you referring to? Really? How disingenuous of you to even go there. Most responsible health professionals base their vaccination discussions and decision making upon the credible science and data and recommendations of the previously identified and funded experts (is that the CDC?) Well, if so, they don’t have the market cornered and may I say they have not been the model of consistency on all things COVID.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood that vaccinated individuals will either becomes infected or will spread the disease if they are infected. That's what the credible science says. Do you know that vaccination protects the larger community through the mechanism of herd immunity? Condescension, how smug of you. So, what was the number we needed to get vaccinated to hit that herd immunity goal? It was not 100%.

Your anecdotal evidence of multiple physicians saying this or that is not evidence of anything. Most physicians are vaccinated against covid and promote vaccination. I didn’t offer that as evidence. I mentioned it to point out that credible science comes from a multitude of sources and YES, even from ones you choose to ignore or turn your nose up at. Even those coveted boosters are not recommend for the GENPOP but only for a targeted audience per the FDA. In fact, all of those physicians I alluded to are vaccinated. That said, they are split when it comes to the mandate. They are also, almost to a person, in favor of looking at ALL options, including what other countries are doing, as well as the data from those other countries. Look at Iceland and Israel. What is happening in those heavily vaccinated countries? Especially Iceland, where I personally lived for 3 years. Very isolated and heavily vaccinated. How’s that working out? AGAIN, I support the vaccine 100%. But Not a mandate on it.

We know that coronaviruses have never been suspected of creating or causing long term immunity in affected adults. We know that this covid is also not responsible for long term natural immunity after infection and as the previously infected remain unvaccinated we will see the clinical evidence of reinfection increase. Well not sure where "We know" that from but found this tidbit interesting: “Antibodies received from a COVID-19 infection can last for at least 10 months post-infection, according to a recent study. The study from Labcorp, a life sciences company that specializes in diagnostics and drug development, found that nearly 87% of those who’ve had COVID-19 saw “extended antibody retention.” https://coronavirus.nautil.us/how-long-covid-antibodies-last The article does go on to say those previously infected greatly benefit from the vaccine. That is why I counsel my patients in the ED to get the vaccine even when they say they have already had the virus.

It's easy to associate 'hateful' intentions with those who push back so passionately against common sense public health recommendations, credible science and data because of a belief system that puts themselves and others at risk. Are you kidding me?? It is downright vitriolic and to pretend otherwise is to bury one’s head in the sand. Disagree respectfully but to hope people are fired? To belittle people for their beliefs? That is B.S.

I happen to be able to see it both ways and avoid the hysteria of “we have to have everyone vaccinated or we are never gonna make it” having worked on the literal front line since the outbreak began w/o contracting the disease, and witnessing my 93 y/o mother in law contract and survive the disease with several co-morbidities without ever being hospitalized.

Again, healthcare workers can work safely w/o being vaccinated as proven for over a year prior to the vaccine. Should they get it. Absolutely! Are they sub-standard, selfish, unqualified to be healthcare workers if they refuse? Absolutely Not! To suggest otherwise is absurd and makes one a pompous A-hole in my humble opinion. If Bob or Becky was a top notch RN, MD, RT, CNA, LPN, LVN, etc. before COVID and the COVID vaccine, then how are they any less so now just because he/she does not want the vaccine?