How Many is Too Many

r_janice · Jul 11, 2005

My only rant about having numerous children is:

My maternal grandma had 12 children (well actually 13 but the first passed away as a infant). So now my mom has three children (me being the middle most responsible and mature one). Well my brother is 22 Im 20 and my lil sis is 14; to make a long story short: Because my mom was brouhgt up taking care of her siblings, cleaning the house, doing all of the parenting to the four siblings younger than her after the oldest moved out, and giving 99% of her paycheck to her mother, she did the same thing to me! When I was 8 I never played with my friends. While my brother was outside playing football I was inside cleaning his mess he made with his friends or the mess left over from dinner while my mom sat on her behind (daddy was in the navy so he was always gone). When I was home from school I got the privledge of bathing and feeding my sister. I was the " live in maid" as I saw it. When I turned 14 (exactly a week after) I got a job at McDonalds so I wouldnt have to ask her for anything. BAD IDEA I ended having to give her $100 every 2 weeks for room and board!! I was 14 I didnt know that was legal so I ended up with a whole $30 after working every weekend. So one day (when I was 16) I got a mouth and an opinion, and explained to my parents if I wanted a child(meaning my little sis who I love dearly) I would have had one of my own and that I was tired of doing everything. I missed out on most of my childhood becuase my mom thought I should be taking care of the house and my sister. Unfortunately, my mom decided I was right and handed everything over to my little sis. Now, I feel its my responsibility to do what I can for my sis. I listen to her cry about cleaning up after the "slobs" (mom and dad), and how she cant go to sleepovers if everything isnt done. There are only 3 people in that house so this means that the other 2 are doing zilch!!

Right as I type this, I am finishing A&PII (third week of 5) my last prereq, starting nursing school next month at the age of 21, engaged, have a daughter (who will be 2yr next month ), buying a house in the beginning of '06 and plan on taking my little sister to live with me.

I think when people decide how many children they are going to have they should think of not only their children but theri grandchildren. I had a miserable childhood due to my numerous adult responsibilities. Yeah I am mature and responsible now but I dont have very good social skills and dont make friends easily (actually I dont have any :chuckle I wonder what Ima do after Im done school cuz that takes up all of my possible free time :rolleyes: ) since I missed that part of child development.

Thanks for letting me tell my side of the field........the grass probably isnt much greener on the other side.

rn/writer, RN · Jul 11, 2005

2)i think this is the most important. if they don't come back they will be shunned and will not be allowed contact even with their own parents. that puts quite a different spin on their "voluntary" return to the amish community.

they are not shunned for not returning. they are shunned for returning to the community, joining the church, and then falling away. in other words, they are not shunned for declining to make a vow, only for making it and then breaking it.

those who do not become members of the church don't participate in the community but, in general, they are not cut off from all contact as someone would be who became a church member and then left. rumspringa is, in part, like the three-day "cooling off" period before a contract becomes legal and binding. it is intended to eliminate excuses about not having a choice or not knowing what was "out there." if the kids are scared to look or haven't got the resources to investigate, that's a problem of a different sort, i suppose. there are plenty who avail themselves of all kinds of exposure.

once again, amish kids who do not join the church are not shunned, nor are their families required to reject them. the only people who are shunned are those who supposedly have counted the cost, entered into membership, and subsequently broken their vows. they are considered to have broken the fellowship and church members see themselves as acknowledging that schism with their silence. this is not to say that some congregations don't mishandle the situation but non-members should not be shunned.

miranda f.

DG5 · Jul 13, 2005

Well, I have five kids and when I was pregnant with the fourth, I received comments like "You're breeding like a rat" and "Do you have nothing else to do??" It was quite humiliating. Five is a great number and just as easy as four, so, if you have the resources and space, why not more?

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Jul 13, 2005

I think the phrase "shut up" is warranted to people who are so rude to make those sort of comments to a pregnant woman.

rambisisking · Jul 13, 2005

The story is that back in the "Old Country" an arangement was made between two fathers and the son went to pick out a wife. He chose the strongest and healthiest of the three because he felt she could give him alot of children, and she did...18...in 28 years. That was my grandmother and grandfather, now this was 90-100 years ago. I think it would fare a little different in this day and age. I have heard stories all my life of my grandmother nursing the babies in the neighborhood because she was always lactating. As in other people's stories, the oldest raised ....and so on. I can only remember my grandmother sitting in a chair and going to church, of course. She really never cleaned or cooked or really did anything but sit in a chair and pray. That made perfect sense to me she must have been exhausted. But I experienced a very special childhood with this extremely large family around me. Everyone did everything for everyone and for some reason, even when people grew up and could live on their own they usually bought the house next door or down the street. I went to school with all of my cousins, they were my best friends. And even the people who weren't actually related by blood were Aunt or Uncle so and so. Now I have extended family all over the country and that comes in handy sometimes, Plus, there is just nothing like it when we get together for a reunion. For me this was a special gift to have grown up like this and wish I could give some of that experience to my own son. However times have changed and everyone is spread out now. Sounds like this family already has the right attitude to do this in these times. I can't imagine, but I think it's wonderful.

mitsraelle · Jul 13, 2005

Hello. I think that you have a pragmatic view of the question. I couldn't either bear not raising children with enough ressources, even in Europe. I share certain points of your view. What's with a healthy environnment? We cannot offer this to our children : ozone problems, cancer, water pollution, food pollution,.... One needs ressources to assure one's place in this type of society. But being limited in having children because of taxes, state, economical reasons, is this liberty ? No, it isn't. Neither in Europe nor anywhere else... Life's sometimes funny. It is possible to raise children with low ressources. See Africa, India, China..The States, Europe et al. is not suited for comparison. Here raising a big family is possible, but in raising not like we want or expect, with priving children and onesself from material point of view (on top social decline, loss of job for women...!!) What a masculine world!!!: Not being rich because of having children !!! Sorry, but we are educated to serve this system, and it is not conceived from or for women, otherwise it would have confirmed or learned us that having children is richness. Why can't we be generous in helping these families ?? I don't speak of money, little things can make the difference. A smile...There are couples that don't have the chance of having children because of disease.... Social institutions support some families in european systems. Even here, you have rights that you haven't (Yes, that's no joke).Bill of rights for children, ratificated...let's take a look.. Here in Europe, people tend to be even more radical. There are even places that prohibit entrance of children, senior citizens excluding children in their neighbourhood with help of justice (because of the noise!!), restaurants, hotels (allowing no children!!). In my country, some persons even consider a big family as asocial, even if parents are wealthy and educated. Sometimes I wonder in which world I live. It is not the world of help, peace, abundance, hapiness that I have dreamed of. This is not right. Not only rich persons should have a big family, it's a right and guarantee for poor persons too. CHILDREN are our past, our present,our future..Even this system needs them to survive. It's through good hearted, good educated and wise children that we change the points that are not human in this system. And wealthy children, in what extend are they good educated, good hearted and wise ?? Think of it yourselves..........

r_janice · Jul 13, 2005

here in europe, people tend to be even more radical. there are even places that prohibit entrance of children, senior citizens excluding children in their neighbourhood with help of justice (because of the noise!!), restaurants, hotels (allowing no children!!).

wow that is extreme. :eek: i would have never thought it legal to prohibit children from a hotel (but ive never left the us so i do know little of other countries ways). that is extreme from my view.

njh0325 · Jul 13, 2005

Ok, I heard about this on "The View" this morning and it got me thinking. A family in Arkansas is expecting their 16th child. Picture of Mum and children getting some sort of award. Then I remembered seeing the family on one of those Baby Story type shows. They were following the pregnancy and talking about the fun family times (like going to a restaurant on kids eat free night -- the restaurant has since limited the number of kids per adult).
I remember looking after a woman who had just delivered her 10th child. Anybody else see this as a trend or does it just depend on the area?

i think it is absolutely horrible and self-centered to have so many children. the world is overpopulated and there are too few resources to support those that are currently alive. i am not saying people should not have children, but sixteen is appalling. i think if you have enough money to support that many children that you should consider giving to those who are unable to support the few that they have.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Jul 13, 2005

i think if you have enough money to support that many children that you should consider giving to those who are unable to support the few that they have.

So in other words they can pay for other people who couldn't afford to have children, yet did anyway. Is that really fair to them (the family with the 16 children) to pay for the consequences of other people's actions?

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Jul 13, 2005

Ok, here's an interesting thought:

would you think it was acceptable to put your child in a daycare where the ratio was 16:1?

And need I mention the tragedies that have occurred with some of these huge families - tragedies of course happen in smaller families of course as well, but with these, when something bad happens, the older child that was supposed to be parenting them will inevitably feel the guilt for the rest of their life. Specifically I'm referring to the Kellys, 13 kids....a 21m little girl got left in the van during the summer. And wasn't missed for seven hours Now with 12 other children running around, I can see how that could happen, it's why I wouldn't feel comfortable with that care situation. That child missed a nap and at least one meal and no one noticed because there were too many other children around. it's not an isolated incident.

And if one of the Duggar kids mess up and miss their buddy, or something happens, they will always feel like they killed their sibling. No child should have to carry that guilt. It's not the children's job to be the parent. It's the parent's job.

Oh, and Jim Bob and his wife have plenty of time for sex - all they do is direct the children's activities.

RNnL&D · Jul 13, 2005

i think it is absolutely horrible and self-centered to have so many children. the world is overpopulated and there are too few resources to support those that are currently alive.

Exploding the over population myth:

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/pdint21.html

http://www.nifty-fifties.com/Facts/OverPop.htm

http://www.rense.com/politics6/overpop.htm

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Jul 13, 2005

Oh, and one of the resources for "training" a child is Michael and Debi Pearl ( http://nogreaterjoy.org )

Here's a snippet from one of the articles:

Mother was reaching for her baby when the father turned to me and asked, "What should I do?" Again I explained the principle--By allowing the child to dictate terms through his whining and crying, you are confirming his habit of whining and consenting to his technique of control. So I told the daddy to tell the boy that he would not be allowed to sit in his mother's lap, and that he was to stop crying. Of course, according to former protocol, he intensified his crying to express the sincerity of his desires. The mother was ready to come up with a compromise. "He was hungry. He was sleepy. He was cold." Actually, he was a brat, molded and confirmed by parental responses. I told the Father to stop the car and without recourse give him three to five licks with a switch. After doing so the child only screamed a louder protest. This is not the time to give in to demand. After two or three minutes, driving down the road listening to his background wails, I told the father to COMMAND the child to stop crying. He only cried more loudly. At my instruction, without further rebuke, the father again stopped the car and spanked the child. Still screaming, we continued for two minutes until the father again commanded the child to be quiet. Again, no response, so the car was again stopped and the child spanked. This was repeated for about twenty miles down a lonesome highway at 11:00 on a winter night.
When the situation began to look like a stalemate, the mother suggested that the little fellow didn't understand. I told the father to command the boy to stop crying immediately or he would again be spanked. The boy ignored him until Father took his foot off the gas, preparatory to stopping. In all his crying, he understood the issues well enough to immediately sense the slowing of the car and understand that it was a response to his crying. The family was relieved to have him stop and the father started to resume his drive. I said "No, you told him he was to stop crying immediately or you would spank him; he waited until you began stopping. He has not obeyed; he is just beginning to show confidence in your resolve. Spank him again and tell him that you will continue to stop and continue to spank until you get instant compliance. The boy was smart. He may not have feared mama. His respect for Daddy was growing, but that big hairy fellow in the front seat seemed to be more stubborn than he was, and with no guilt at all. This time when Daddy gave his command, the boy dried it up like a paper towel. The parents had won and the boy was the beneficiary.