Help. Is my outrage justified?

GHGoonette, BSN, RN · Dec 11, 2010

Pumpkins don't grow in Africa, do they?

THANK YOU!!! Exactly my point! There are some gourd plants that are indigenous to Africa, but the specific pumpkin whose seeds are being promoted as a health supplement is actually from South or Middle America! As I pointed out in one of my previous posts, the chewing of pumpkin seeds is a Native American tradition, and in my understanding is classed as a traditional medicine which may have its origin amongst South American tribes. Implying or stating that it is an African tradition, cultural or religious, is false!

neuroms · Dec 11, 2010

I love how many of our medical supplies are made of pigstuff. Not Kosher.

Emergency RN · Dec 11, 2010

I disagree...
I happen to be a C student, academically challenged and I have been told by my instructors that I am a good student...just some area's I struggle with.
I have an A average in certain courses and a C in others...not because Im a poor student but because I am academically challenged.
I have even failed a few courses, only to take them again and pass...because to fail a course is not a poor student but one who is learning. To give up and quit because one failed an exam or didnt get a grade that they expected...that is a poor student....a good student learns and doesnt give up!! I know people who took double the length of time to graduate because they were average academically challenged.
Even our instructor said that she finds many of the ones with the lower grades and marginal grades are the ones who shine during clinical...they just dont do as well on the exams...

You're perfectly entitled to disagree; however, I remain steadfast in my opinion that those with grade C averages are academically mediocre. In general, there are excellent, average and poor categories, in terms of normal educational performance bell curve distribution. For the few excellent students at the high end of that scale, there will likely be an equivalent number of poor students at the other end of the scale. The bulk of the students should perform in the middle, or average part of that curve. This is commonly accepted educational statistics.

But by your argument, the entire grading and evaluation system used in nursing (or other educational training) programs then, are not suited to the task. Even in training (where I understand that we're expected to make mistakes), we are expected to attain a level of proficiency and return demonstrate (through various testing methodologies) our achievement of that knowledge to a degree of what is considered academically acceptable.

What I think you're being upset with, is the labeling. I know that it may be a great source of personal discomfort for those that ever resided within that academic category (having been there, done that; I myself, was once a high school drop out; how's that for being academically challenged, eh?); but sugar coating it with euphemisms to make oneself shine with pride (ie 'everyone is a hero or special in other ways too') just ignores the fact that there is a problem that needs to be addressed and solved (In my case, I stopped blaming the teachers, got my head out of my butt, went back to school and eventually graduated Magna Cum Laude with my BSN). So like I had stated, being told that one is academically challenged or a poorly performing student can certainly make one disappointed and angry. But the anger should be directed at the mediocre performance and not at the object of training, which is very much what the OP's initial story was about. Again, like I had stated before, the problem in the OP story, is to blame others for a situation that one had put one's self in. And yes, I accept the fact that there are probably many other things that poor students do that would be considered excellent. But overall however, the majority of their performance is consistently more often poor than not, hence their academic outcome. And yes, I do agree that with perseverance and dogged persistence (like in your case and mine), that such educational obstacles can be overcome and self growth achieved. Hence, I don't believe that there should ever be excuses made for one's lack of learning ability.

Glossing over that fact, or hiding it behind minor successes with other less meaningful criteria does not replace genuine performance (IMHO doing more harm than good). Thus, I have considered your counterargument, but respectfully remain unconvinced by your suggestion that academic performance being a less than meaningful education metric. Granted, poorly performing students may have to work a lot harder, but that's simply to make up for what they lack in learning ability. It's the individual's fault, not the systems'.

On another note:

I love how many of our medical supplies are made of pigstuff. Not Kosher.

Porcine heparin, or heart valves are easily called to mind. However, that doesn't generally matter if there is a medical need. See the following:

There are no restrictions or requirements concerning medicine and kosher laws for those who are ill. In fact, it is interesting to note that according to Jewish law, "eating" is defined as an act done with the mouth. Food or medications taken through the veins is not considered "eating" in Jewish law and as such, are exempt from kosher laws.

A person who is seriously ill may also swallow non-kosher medicines without worry. In the event that a person is not terribly ill and/or the medicine is enjoyable and has food like properties then a rabbi should be consulted.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Ari Enkin
Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel
Source: Ask the Orthodox Rabbi - Kosher Medicines - Heparin Blood Thinner

highlandlass1592, BSN, RN · Dec 11, 2010

You stated an excellent point about your BSN..you worked your "butt off" and turned things around. Before nursing, I was a straight A student. When I was in nursing, I turned into an "academically challenged student". Did I forget how to study? Did I suddenly lose brain function? Nope, I couldn't put the time in. Long story short, I was kicked out of home, had to totally support myself on wages that were about $5 an hour and ended up working 60-70 hours a week PLUS Nursing school and clinical. I did what I had to do to survive.

I would have loved to have been an academically superior nursing student and know I was capable of it. But you can only fit so many things in to a schedule. And I have become a superior nurse...because I have taken those same learning skills into the practice arena. I constantly educate myself, using the skills I knew I possessed then and still possess now.

I agree with you that this attitude of trying to blame others is exasperating. We are too wrapped up in making everyone feel good as opposed to rewarding true work. Excellence isn't handed to anyone, you have to work for it. Nuff said, getting off my soapbox.

GHGoonette, BSN, RN · Dec 11, 2010

You're perfectly entitled to disagree; however, I remain steadfast in my opinion that those with grade C averages are academically mediocre. In general, there are excellent, average and poor categories, in terms of normal educational performance bell curve distribution. For the few excellent students at the high end of that scale, there will likely be an equivalent number of poor students at the other end of the scale. The bulk of the students should perform in the middle, or average part of that curve. This is commonly accepted educational statistics.
But by your argument, the entire grading and evaluation system used in nursing (or other educational training) programs then, are not suited to the task. Even in training (where I understand that we're expected to make mistakes), we are expected to attain a level of proficiency and return demonstrate (through various testing methodologies) our achievement of that knowledge to a degree of what is considered academically acceptable.
What I think you're being upset with, is the labeling. I know that it may be a great source of personal discomfort for those that ever resided within that academic category (having been there, done that; I myself, was once a high school drop out; how's that for being academically challenged, eh?); but sugar coating it with euphemisms to make oneself shine with pride (ie 'everyone is a hero or special in other ways too') just ignores the fact that there is a problem that needs to be addressed and solved (In my case, I stopped blaming the teachers, got my head out of my butt, went back to school and eventually graduated Magna Cum Laude with my BSN). So like I had stated, being told that one is academically challenged or a poorly performing student can certainly make one disappointed and angry. But the anger should be directed at the mediocre performance and not at the object of training, which is very much what the OP's initial story was about. Again, like I had stated before, the problem in the OP story, is to blame others for a situation that one had put one's self in. And yes, I accept the fact that there are probably many other things that poor students do that would be considered excellent. But overall however, the majority of their performance is consistently more often poor than not, hence their academic outcome. And yes, I do agree that with perseverance and dogged persistence (like in your case and mine), that such educational obstacles can be overcome and self growth achieved. Hence, I don't believe that there should ever be excuses made for one's lack of learning ability.
Glossing over that fact, or hiding it behind minor successes with other less meaningful criteria does not replace genuine performance (IMHO doing more harm than good). Thus, I have considered your counterargument, but respectfully remain unconvinced by your suggestion that academic performance being a less than meaningful education metric. Granted, poorly performing students may have to work a lot harder, but that's simply to make up for what they lack in learning ability. It's the individual's fault, not the systems'.

I hear what you're saying, and given the scientific advances and changing roles in nursing over the past two decades, it may very well be that higher standards at the academic level are considered necessary; when I trained, nurses who struggled academically but shone at the practical level were "assisted" through their finals. This is no longer possible, as student training no longer takes place at the bedside.

However, I would very much like to see this specific question in its entirety, and the study information that was provided to the students. If the op has worded it correctly, and if the "correct" answer is religious, it calls into question the quality of instruction and study materials being provided at this college. On this basis, the OP is justified in being outraged, her friend is justified in protesting, and there are grounds for the local BON or council to get involved.

resumecpr · Dec 11, 2010

I've just finished my first semester and have found that nursing tests tend to be half knowledge and half knowing the professor's questions/lucky guessing. And it isn't just your program, you can't challenge those fluff questions in any nursing program, but that's life. There are times when you're at a definite power disadvantage and it doesn't matter how right you are; you have to be prepared to let it roll off.

I'm not sure how many patients would like to know that their nurse made it through school because of "lucky guesses!!!"

TakeOne · Dec 11, 2010

Is my rage justified. My friend just flunked out of her first semester of Nursing School with a 76 average. 77 is the cut. The failing question (and I don't know it word for word, but here is the general gist of it): An african woman who lives in Africa has an intestinal bug. She believes that by eating pumpkin seeds, the bug will be eliminated. Is this a : religious belief, a cultural belief, is she correct, and few other choices. My friend answered, a cultural belief. As per the teacher: WRONG. First of all, regardless of the question or answer, how is this question even relevant to Nursing? Upon doing her homework and research, my friend could argue it very much IS a cultural thing. She appealed the question. The woman who wrote the question refused to budge and the appeals committee sided with her. So boom. My freind is out. Never mind she is an excellent student. I am outraged. 44 people apparently missed this question. When teachers result to trickery on exams, it is so unfair and the students will never win. What can be done about this? This is, no doubt, a power issue and the teacher is getting off on it. People like that have got to go. BTW, she is a mean and unhappy woman who has been teaching at the school forever. I am beginning in January at the same institution. If I wasn't sufficiently terrified before, I certainly am now. Feedback, please.

The question is relevant to nursing because students' minds must remain open to beliefs and practices outside those of Western medicine.

All of this is coming to us second hand. It is hearsay. Your friend is ****** off, and you're afraid that the same thing might happen to you at the hands of "mean and unhappy" teachers. You've provided no insight and no attempt to understand any point of view but your friend's and your own, but want to know if your outrage is justified. Since you are borrowing trouble here, no, your outrage is not justified. You didn't even tell us what the test writer says the right answer is!

The point of multiple test questions is to make the test taker think through the answers provided and choose the BEST one in the group. It's not trickery. It's logic and problem solving. Your friend, and you, had better get used to that. Having all the right answers handed to you is not the core of advanced education and training in a profession.

linearthinker, DNP, RN · Dec 11, 2010

"...many academically challenged students are excellent students" ?
Excuse me, but that's sorta like Jumbo Shrimp, right? LOL...
What I mean to say is, if they're excellent students in the first place, then they would NOT be academically challenged, would they?. Rather, I think what you meant to say is that even poor students may make great nurses, and I agree with you on that. But, I'm afraid you're appending your own thoughts to my words; I didn't say anything at all about her friend eventually being a good or bad nurse, just that she was academically challenged based on the OP's description of her grades. Thus, I stand by my observation of her being one question from failure as well as her being academically challenged.
That is, anyone who is a C student is academically challenged (or poor student); as opposed to being academically average (B or fair student) or academically superior (A or excellent student). Since in the OP's discussion, the friend's academic life's continued existence was entirely dependent on the success or failure of answering one question; again, my assessment of her being one question from failure is also factually correct.

I totally agree with this. Let's just be frank, scoring in the 70s is subpar and shouldn't be accepted in any educational environment, period. No amount of political correctness is going to change the fact that that the bar is just too low in Nursing. I maintain, if you can't score above the 90th percentile, you shouldn't be a nurse.

JacobK, ADN, EMT-I · Dec 11, 2010

I totally agree with this. Let's just be frank, scoring in the 70s is subpar and shouldn't be accepted in any educational environment, period. No amount of political correctness is going to change the fact that that the bar is just too low in Nursing. I maintain, if you can't score above the 90th percentile, you shouldn't be a nurse.

Only those above the 90th percentile!?

So, by your logic, out of a nursing class of 100 students only the top 10 should be able to become nurses?

Ruby Vee, BSN · Dec 11, 2010

is my rage justified. my friend just flunked out of her first semester of nursing school with a 76 average. 77 is the cut. the failing question (and i don't know it word for word, but here is the general gist of it): an african woman who lives in africa has an intestinal bug. she believes that by eating pumpkin seeds, the bug will be eliminated. is this a : religious belief, a cultural belief, is she correct, and few other choices. my friend answered, a cultural belief. as per the teacher: wrong. first of all, regardless of the question or answer, how is this question even relevant to nursing? upon doing her homework and research, my friend could argue it very much is a cultural thing. she appealed the question. the woman who wrote the question refused to budge and the appeals committee sided with her. so boom. my freind is out. never mind she is an excellent student. i am outraged. 44 people apparently missed this question. when teachers result to trickery on exams, it is so unfair and the students will never win. what can be done about this? this is, no doubt, a power issue and the teacher is getting off on it. people like that have got to go. btw, she is a mean and unhappy woman who has been teaching at the school forever. i am beginning in january at the same institution. if i wasn't sufficiently terrified before, i certainly am now. feedback, please.

as i understand it, your friend missed 24% of the questions, not just that one. so i'm curious as to why you picked this particular question to be outraged over.

i'm sorry for your friend flunking her first semester, but hopefully she'll be able to repeat the semester and get a better grade and gain a better understanding of the class material.

CanuckLPN73 · Dec 11, 2010

You're perfectly entitled to disagree; however, I remain steadfast in my opinion that those with grade C averages are academically mediocre. In general, there are excellent, average and poor categories, in terms of normal educational performance bell curve distribution. For the few excellent students at the high end of that scale, there will likely be an equivalent number of poor students at the other end of the scale. The bulk of the students should perform in the middle, or average part of that curve. This is commonly accepted educational statistics.
But by your argument, the entire grading and evaluation system used in nursing (or other educational training) programs then, are not suited to the task. Even in training (where I understand that we're expected to make mistakes), we are expected to attain a level of proficiency and return demonstrate (through various testing methodologies) our achievement of that knowledge to a degree of what is considered academically acceptable.
What I think you're being upset with, is the labeling. I know that it may be a great source of personal discomfort for those that ever resided within that academic category (having been there, done that; I myself, was once a high school drop out; how's that for being academically challenged, eh?); but sugar coating it with euphemisms to make oneself shine with pride (ie 'everyone is a hero or special in other ways too') just ignores the fact that there is a problem that needs to be addressed and solved (In my case, I stopped blaming the teachers, got my head out of my butt, went back to school and eventually graduated Magna Cum Laude with my BSN). So like I had stated, being told that one is academically challenged or a poorly performing student can certainly make one disappointed and angry. But the anger should be directed at the mediocre performance and not at the object of training, which is very much what the OP's initial story was about. Again, like I had stated before, the problem in the OP story, is to blame others for a situation that one had put one's self in. And yes, I accept the fact that there are probably many other things that poor students do that would be considered excellent. But overall however, the majority of their performance is consistently more often poor than not, hence their academic outcome. And yes, I do agree that with perseverance and dogged persistence (like in your case and mine), that such educational obstacles can be overcome and self growth achieved. Hence, I don't believe that there should ever be excuses made for one's lack of learning ability.
Glossing over that fact, or hiding it behind minor successes with other less meaningful criteria does not replace genuine performance (IMHO doing more harm than good). Thus, I have considered your counterargument, but respectfully remain unconvinced by your suggestion that academic performance being a less than meaningful education metric. Granted, poorly performing students may have to work a lot harder, but that's simply to make up for what they lack in learning ability. It's the individual's fault, not the systems'.
:

I didnt say that academic performance was not important...and I said no where that one should go blame someone else. I accept that I am a marginal student in some area's, horrible in others as I really struggle, however that is something that I dont let bother me as I know I'm excellent in other areas. If I bomb something (45%) on an essay then I keep tugging along and I learn from that 45%. If I need to retake it then I retake it. All I am saying is that a low grade shouldnt be looked at as a failure or a reason to drop out of school (nursing, accounting, teaching, heck even a trade!) one needs to keep going if that is their desire because it is possible!! Heck I just failed an exam big time, however I have not failed the course as Im sitting at a C+ and after I write my theory exam Ill be back at a B or B+ as I do excellent on the theory exams (A & P). It's not the teachers fault I failed the exam, nor is it my fault...it just is...nothing I can do to change it. I studied my gluteus maximus off (though it didnt help).

I personally think she should not be worried about her friend and that her friend should accept her grade and use it as part of her life long learning. I don't know her friend however it is very possible that she would make a wonderful nurse (maybe she's great in other area's)....and then again she may make a horrible nurse.

I do applaud you for going back to school, however I wouldnt of considered you academically challenged, I would of considered you lazy, then you got your gluteus maximus in gear and accomplished alot!!

I too dropped out, due to laziness, went back did a Teacher Assistant Cert in my 20s, then an HCA and now the LPN. I know many who are academically challenged and never dropped out...they continued and graduated with college cert, diploma's or BN's at 20-22 with a marginal grade...however they did it and didnt let their challenges get in the way of their education as I did by dropping out!! :)

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Dec 11, 2010

One test question should not make nor break a student.

I understand your taking umbrage for your friend, but be careful--you're going into HER (instructor's) territory where her rules apply.

It is a losing battle.

J