HELP DNP vs FNP

Jules A, MSN · Jul 29, 2015

I think this is a pretty common way of thinking for lots of MSN's. I know I would like it if the DNP taught more hands on clinical skills and improved pharm knowledge. My biggest fear is another terminal clinical degree comes along that actually does do those things mentioned above.

My guess and sincere hope is there will be a specialty track eventually offered for those who are pursuing the DNP to be a NP.

PG2018 · Jul 29, 2015

I am currently in a DNP program at a pioneer program for the clinical DNP. The most important advice I will give to anyone seeking to advance beyond MSN is to never listen to the naysayers.
It makes me sad(for them) when I speak to nurses/NPs who are anti-DNP or simply against any kind of advancement of the profession. I think a big factor is a lack of knowledge about what the DNP actually is. Therefore, do your homework and understand the DNP programs and what they each offer. Some are really just looking joining the "DNP" bandwagon and other really want to advance the profession by putting out great clinicians. You will have to articulate these facts to prospective employers, so begin to develop your "sales pitch".
I honestly believe that the same nurses that complain about the difficult work environment actually love it, because any opportunity to stand together and advance the profession is often met with intra-professional opposition. We are all entitled to our opinions, but don't try to convince someone to not advance, broaden their depth of knowledge and skills because you chose otherwise . This was the same opposition the BSN received(and still receives it from inveterate ADNs) and the MSN received opposition from NPs who had obtained certificates. You will never know what you don't know, until you learn it - bottom line.
By the way, I know DNPs who got a $16000/year raise for the extra degree. While it is less than one would hope for, it is not $5000/year.

I think you're wrong. I think many nursing professionals want to improve the profession. I know I do particularly with regard to RN working conditions and APRN education breadth and professional perception. I think the DNP, as it is currently known, does nothing for any of these things. Sure, you get more education and another degree, maybe even a raise as you suggest, but what is the longterm, professional gain? The RNs will still be rolling people and wiping butts (economics won't all a change in this), and NPs will still be cranked out almost a dime a dozen. I think it's a ridiculous notion to train NPs in a niche focus without giving a rather broad, general medical training. I also don't feel that any part of a RN training should have anything to do with what is taught in NP training programs. So you had to take undergrad A&P? Big deal. That's no reason not to do it again, with pathology, micro, biochem, et al in graduate school. Future NPs waste a lot of time and money on frivolous graduate coursework in things they won't use on the job. If they want to learn about biostats, research, epidemiology, health programs, etc. then they need to enroll in an MPH program. If they want to learn about research and conduct original research go PhD. For the budding clinician, there is a void. I think NP curricula should be more aligned to that of a PA program, with general medical exposure, and the addition of focus training in the area of interest, i.e. psychiatry for me. My MSN took three years going just as fast as the university would allow. A year of that was a total waste doing scut work nursing theory and community health types of courses. So if I want a higher "nursing degree" I need a DNP in what, "research translation" or get a doctorate in philosophy? It's ridiculous. I suppose I indeed chose the wrong field because I'm interested in learning about how the body works, w

hat makes it not work so well, and how to fix it. Beyond that I'm interested in "broke brains" and how to fix that too. Strangely, nursing doesn't seem to care about any of this.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 29, 2015

Well, I hope the AACN and current DNP's take the thoughts and opinions of all currently practicing APRN's and translate that into a terminal degree that provides with "all of the above". As a provider, I think if we want other provider disciplines to take us seriously and also allow us to use our doctoral title in a clinical setting, our terminal degree needs have more emphasis on clinical skills/prescriptive knowledge.

What would be great is combining an APRN Post Masters Certificate (which can take less than a year) with some of the DNP curiculum and having that be the terminal degree. That way you directly advance your scope of practice while also gaining the translating research into practice aspect as well.

divobari · Jul 29, 2015

I think you're wrong. I think many nursing professionals want to improve the profession. I know I do particularly with regard to RN working conditions and APRN education breadth and professional perception. I think the DNP, as it is currently known, does nothing for any of these things. Sure, you get more education and another degree, maybe even a raise as you suggest, but what is the longterm, professional gain? The RNs will still be rolling people and wiping butts (economics won't all a change in this), and NPs will still be cranked out almost a dime a dozen. I think it's a ridiculous notion to train NPs in a niche focus without giving a rather broad, general medical training. I also don't feel that any part of a RN training should have anything to do with what is taught in NP training programs. So you had to take undergrad A&P? Big deal. That's no reason not to do it again, with pathology, micro, biochem, et al in graduate school. Future NPs waste a lot of time and money on frivolous graduate coursework in things they won't use on the job. If they want to learn about biostats, research, epidemiology, health programs, etc. then they need to enroll in an MPH program. If they want to learn about research and conduct original research go PhD. For the budding clinician, there is a void. I think NP curricula should be more aligned to that of a PA program, with general medical exposure, and the addition of focus training in the area of interest, i.e. psychiatry for me. My MSN took three years going just as fast as the university would allow. A year of that was a total waste doing scut work nursing theory and community health types of courses. So if I want a higher "nursing degree" I need a DNP in what, "research translation" or get a doctorate in philosophy? It's ridiculous. I suppose I indeed chose the wrong field because I'm interested in learning about how the body works, w
hat makes it not work so well, and how to fix it. Beyond that I'm interested in "broke brains" and how to fix that too. Strangely, nursing doesn't seem to care about any of this.

OK. I actually would love to entertain this further, but as you already know, I'm a DNP student and actually have frivolous things to do, so that I can someday be called "Dr." I am respectfully bowing out of this one... thanks for the ride...

Jules A, MSN · Jul 30, 2015

As we attempt to enter the while collar arena it is painfully obvious that we are our own worst enemies sometimes, sigh.

synaptic · Jul 30, 2015

i want a doctorate degree too, so i decided to go back to med school. will take a while, but it is worth it in the end, as long as you have your prereqs done and stuff.

But i like science, not sure how much science a lot of nurses are fond of, such as physics, organic chem, etc. I enjoy studying those materials, and really the knowledge gained in basic sciences is needed for a lot of medical research to be understood. Just my 2C though, each person should go for the degree they think fits his or her lifestyle and personality.

DrNP · Jul 30, 2015

The benefits of having a DNP is equipping yourself to be more marketable and adds to your leadership skills. It may not change your rate of pay immediately but it gives you leverage to ask for a raise or negotiate a higher salary. Using your knowledge as a change agent you are qualified to help with cost savings and maintain quality care. I know there are plenty of MSN prepare NP's that can do this as well but it helps when you have the credentials. As was said, it is the terminal degree.

AllIcanbe · Jul 30, 2015

DrNP; Clinical experience trumps any degree. Our CV nurse in the CICu is a diploma trained nurse. The CV surgeons have refused to hire NPs because they will rather keep someone who has worked with them and has several years of experience with the CV team....The CV nurse claims she makes more money than most NPs so she doesnt see a reason to go back to school..

On another thread; I learnt NPs in Australia are nurses with many years of experience and are considered clinical experts. . Maybe if the US adopts this system; APRNs can command more income. I did not choose the NP route because in my state; I make more than most entry level NPs... I have 6yrs CVicu experience, work average of 36hrs/week and bring home 6 figures....

allnurses Guide · Jul 30, 2015

Do you have any research to back up that "clinical experience trumps any degree", because there are lots of research in nursing that shows just the opposite.

Clinical experience is important, but it doesn't necessarily equate to better outcomes.

AllIcanbe · Jul 30, 2015

Do you have any research to back up that "clinical experience trumps any degree", because there are lots of research in nursing that shows just the opposite.
Clinical experience is important, but it doesn't necessarily equate to better outcomes.

In my case; I make more than most NPs in my state. I dont need research to tell me that...I work in a state with bazillion hospitals. Experienced ICU nurses/PAs are hot cake here. I work with NPs who are still practising as RNs because they have not landed their dream jobs...

Why do employers hire experienced RNs over new grads? I believe they are counting on that clinical experience.

Coming from an APRN; I am surprised you stated that clinical experience does not equate better outcomes. Really? So what does? A higher degree that has very loose requirement for entry? Hopefully not...

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

Do you have any research to back up that "clinical experience trumps any degree", because there are lots of research in nursing that shows just the opposite.
Clinical experience is important, but it doesn't necessarily equate to better outcomes.

I find this fascinating. Do you have the links to the research to back that claim up? If it's truly the "opposite" that means any degree trumps clinical experience. I would find it strange that a Western country like Australia would create such a barrier to become an APRN, requiring exceptional experience, when research "shows just the opposite".

AllIcanbe is obviously a minority in terms of pay and hours worked for nurses on a national level, but her story is not uncommon. I know one of my biggest hang ups about going back to school was that the salaries NP's were making when I started were on par with my RN pay. At this point in time, DNP national salary figures aren't any different than their MSN APRN counterparts, which is again another hang up for many. .

I think when there is research that indicates that those with a DNP have better clinical outcomes for their patients, more people will go for their DNP.

AllIcanbe · Jul 30, 2015

As a CRNA; wtbcrna should know that all CRNA schools require some kind of clinical experience( preferably ICU) before you start the program. There must be a good reason for this requirement.

Also, there is no pay difference for masters prepared/DNP/DNAP crnas...because empoyers are not yet convinced a difference exists between the two levels on the clinically.