HELP DNP vs FNP

allnurses Guide · Jul 26, 2015

When people stop talking about a degree they almost know nothing about then maybe I will quit using that line. In other words get over it, and just in case you missed I provided several articles, the links to the AACN, and the IOM article that is referred to by the AACN.

You on the other have provided nothing of worthwhile value to this thread.

If you don't want the DNP don't get it. It is that simple. Going around ******** about the degree on ANs will do nothing to change the AACN or other national organizations minds on the value of the DNP.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 26, 2015

When people stop talking about a degree they almost know nothing about then maybe I will quit using that line. In other words get over it, and just in case you missed I provided several articles, the links to the AACN, and the IOM article that is referred to by the AACN.
You on the other have provided nothing of worthwhile value to this thread.
If you don't want the DNP don't get it. It is that simple. Going around ******** about the degree on ANs will do nothing to change the AACN or other national organizations minds on the value of the DNP.

You're such a great ambassador to your cause. Keep it up.

allnurses Guide · Jul 26, 2015

I know..

IsabelK · Jul 27, 2015

It is so childish to keep reiterating that people who do not believe that the DNP adds value to the nursing program should not get the DNP degree. Is there anything wrong in having a different opinion?... Please have a better comeback next time around....

But in many ways it's that simple: If you do not feel it adds value to your individual situation or you don't want to spend the money, don't. You're absolutely right in that for many people it's not a necessary degree.

I will add the following, though:

I worked hard for my DNP. I did not have to get it to be an NP. I was already an NP when I went back to school. I have, however, read the same articles as wtbcrna. I see a great deal of value in the DNP from both personal experience, however brief since I graduated in May this year, and from talking with other DNPs. I am not asking any nurse to go back to school for the DNP. I am asking that everyone recognize that some nurses have opted to complete a terminal degree at the doctorate level which AACN and IOM agree is well worth it. I also ask that people recognize mine and other DNP accomplishments. We have earned the title "Dr." and have gone above and beyond what is currently expected to enhance our ability to provide care, apply research, etc. I and others with "DNP" after our names have earned the privilege to be "Dr. Last Name" and that should acknowledged by other nurses, by physicians, etc.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 27, 2015

I worked hard for my DNP. I did not have to get it to be an NP. I was already an NP when I went back to school. I have, however, read the same articles as wtbcrna. I see a great deal of value in the DNP from both personal experience, however brief since I graduated in May this year, and from talking with other DNPs. I am not asking any nurse to go back to school for the DNP. I am asking that everyone recognize that some nurses have opted to complete a terminal degree at the doctorate level which AACN and IOM agree is well worth it. I also ask that people recognize mine and other DNP accomplishments. We have earned the title "Dr." and have gone above and beyond what is currently expected to enhance our ability to provide care, apply research, etc. I and others with "DNP" after our names have earned the privilege to be "Dr. Last Name" and that should acknowledged by other nurses, by physicians, etc.

Thank you, finally a well thought out post from a DNP. You were in a situation that I currently am in, where I am practicing and considering going back because I desire a terminal degree. If I may ask a few questions:

Do you feel the cost of the degree is worth the end result? Getting a DNP gives you the title, but it will be very expensive (more expensive than my actual MSN which came with a new scope of practice). Do you feel you are getting the same bang for your buck as you did when your got your MSN? This is one of my biggest reservations about the degree on a meta level. I know the AACN wants us to get the degree, I just don't think they have articulated well enough why, or backed themselves up with strong data supporting the role.

Did you get a substantial pay raise for getting your DNP? The jump from BSN to MSN/NP is usually substantial, but if you look at payscale data for all DNP's, it isn't much different to an NP salary (which the vast majority are still MSN trained). For many, I think this is what really discourages them from going back to school. For me personally, my dream job is working for the State Department where they actually do bump you up a paygrade for having your DNP (although it is very minor), and it seems that government overall is the only field that seems to significantly value the degree (outside of academia).

Do you ever actually get called "doctor" in your clinical setting seriously and not as a mistake by patients? I have never called a PharmD "doctor", nor a doctoral PT. Some states even ban the practice in the clinical setting, while others allow it with no reservations. In Texas, we can use the title clinically but have to make sure we wear identification clearly identifying us as nurses and not physicians.

What was your capstone project about? Were you able to keep working fulltime without sacrificing too much personally and professionally?

IsabelK · Jul 28, 2015

Riburn3:

I'm going to take the questions you asked by paragraph...

1) Yes, the cost is worth the end result. I got more bang for my buck in the DNP program than in the MSN program. I learned a lot more and was able to really get comfortable with reading and understanding research. I also learned a lot more about statistics and how to apply research in the clinical setting. Did I gain substantially more clinical skills? Not the "hard" ones like lung assessment, but definitely the ability to work with different diagnoses, caregiver and patient concerns (I work in geriatrics), and the ability to translate best practice guidelines into my clinical work.

2) When I changed jobs, yes, it made a big difference in pay. My last job it did not. But that's one of the reasons I left. I felt that as much as I had learned at my previous job, it was essentially a job I would do over and over exactly the same way for years if I stayed. I loved the patients, loved the families, and really enjoyed my colleagues, but I wanted a significant ability to grow within an organization. The one I am at now encourages clinical and managerial/leadership growth. That will translate into higher pay down the road. I think a lot of the pay recognition depends on where an NP works and the structure of the organization. I do, however, know of a few NPs who have left positions because of the lack of recognition for their doctorates.

3) I was not allowed to use "Dr." in my previous setting in the clinical realm. However, in NYS the only requirement to its use is that I explain I am not a medical doctor. I think if I want to use it in my new position, I can as long as I adhere to that. I will likely introduce myself as a doctor of nursing practice, but then tell families and patients that they can call me by my first name if they are more comfortable. When I am introduced when I am speaking at a conference or as a guest lecturer, in meetings for the first time with other providers, I do introduce myself as "Dr. K" and nobody takes offense.

4) My capstone was about informal caregivers of dementia patients. I did a pre-intervention questionnaire, taught a module, and did a post-intervention questionnaire (it was actually the same one). I wanted to see if increased access to information would increase understanding of dementia. It appeared to, but it was a snapshot, not over the long term, which was one of the biggest weaknesses with the project. The results, however, did mirror other projects of similar type with other diseases. I did work full-time. Technically I was a part time student, but it never worked out that way. I was always studying or charting. I got so tired of computers that I'd go on strike for a day or two every now and then. If I could have worked part-time I would have. I gave up a lot of nights out with friends, I took my homework on vacation for two years (yeah, this year I'm traveling without a computer). I slept 3 - 4 hours a night for nights on end. My husband was wonderful; we don't have kids so it was ok that way, but my dog forgot who I was (just kidding, but I think she sometimes wondered what I was doing). For about a month after I graduated I had no idea what to do with myself. Was it worth it? Yeah. Would I did again? Yeah. I have to admit, though, that I am enjoying doing simple things like reading for pleasure again.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 28, 2015

Thank you so much for taking the time to post this information. It's great food for thought.

IsabelK · Jul 28, 2015

Thank you so much for taking the time to post this information. It's great food for thought.

You're welcome.

divobari · Jul 29, 2015

I am currently in a DNP program at a pioneer program for the clinical DNP. The most important advice I will give to anyone seeking to advance beyond MSN is to never listen to the naysayers.

It makes me sad(for them) when I speak to nurses/NPs who are anti-DNP or simply against any kind of advancement of the profession. I think a big factor is a lack of knowledge about what the DNP actually is. Therefore, do your homework and understand the dnp programs and what they each offer. Some are really just looking joining the "DNP" bandwagon and other really want to advance the profession by putting out great clinicians. You will have to articulate these facts to prospective employers, so begin to develop your "sales pitch".

I honestly believe that the same nurses that complain about the difficult work environment actually love it, because any opportunity to stand together and advance the profession is often met with intra-professional opposition. We are all entitled to our opinions, but don't try to convince someone to not advance, broaden their depth of knowledge and skills because you chose otherwise . This was the same opposition the BSN received(and still receives it from inveterate ADNs) and the MSN received opposition from NPs who had obtained certificates. You will never know what you don't know, until you learn it - bottom line.

By the way, I know DNPs who got a $16000/year raise for the extra degree. While it is less than one would hope for, it is not $5000/year.

divobari · Jul 29, 2015

IsabelK, you are a rockstar!! Rock on! Congrats on your accomplishments - it is inspiring!!!

Jules A, MSN · Jul 29, 2015

In addition to the "if you don't want to be a nurse go to medical school" the predominant theme seems to be that if you aren't supportive of the DNP it is because you don't know what it is about. Speaking only for my self I do know what it is about and feel it, as our MS program, is deficient for practical skills/pharm. I have researched two programs and have a close friend who teaches at a third. I concluded it was not for me for many reasons as already noted but mostly because there is not a program at this time that focuses on increasing skills and prescribing knowledge which are two things I feel are sorely lacking for NPs. To me a capstone project is not a clinical experience.

My base is close to $200,000 a year without overtime, I'm aiming to exceed that with OT this year. None of my employers feel the addition of the DNP would be worth a pay increase.

I'd would like it if those with their DNP actually added their impressive upgraded salaries for comparison.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 29, 2015

In addition to the "if you don't want to be a nurse go to medical school" the predominant theme seems to be that if you aren't supportive of the DNP it is because you don't know what it is about. Speaking only for my self I do know what it is about and feel it, as our MS program, is deficient for practical skills/pharm. I have researched two programs and have a close friend who teaches at a third. I concluded it was not for me for many reasons as already noted but mostly because there is not a program at this time that focuses on increasing skills and prescribing knowledge which are two things I feel are sorely lacking for NPs. To me a capstone project is not a clinical experience.

I think this is a pretty common way of thinking for lots of MSN's. I know I would like it if the DNP taught more hands on clinical skills and improved pharm knowledge. My biggest fear is another terminal clinical degree comes along that actually does do those things mentioned above.