HELP DNP vs FNP

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Can anyone explain the advantages of going ahead and getting my DNP? What can I do clinically with a DNP and not with a FNP? Pay differences? Open my own clinic?

THANKS

Specializes in Internal Medicine.
Well since experience trumps education it should be easy to find or you could just look on the AACN website and read through their material..

1) I never once said experience trumps education. That was another poster

.

2) You're the one that keeps referencing things without proof. You still are yet to back up your claim with a reference.

3) I have read the AACN articles, I even linked one for you to read earlier in the thread where they themselves said more research needs to be done to improve DNP rates.

4) No where in the AACN articles, fact sheet, etc which were just updated last month does it state that experience "shows just the opposite effect". This is your post: " Do you have any research to back up that "clinical experience trumps any degree", because there are lots of research in nursing that shows just the opposite."

Your assertion is that any degree does in fact trump experience, which you say there is "lots of research" (which you yourself fail to reference).

5) It's absolutely ridiculous to demand that someone back up their claim with research, then try and refute them by stating there is research to the opposite, which you yourself have continually refused to reference. What's worse, is when you get called out on it, your response is to tell me to find it myself. How old are you? You seem to want it both ways. You call out posters to reference their statements yet for some reason you are exempt from it?

6) Here again is an important finding from a study commissioned by the AACN themselves taken from their website:

"To facilitate the continued transition to the DNP, the report authors recommend that AACN conduct outcome studies to assess the impact DNP graduates are having on patient care; provide outreach and data to employers showing the value-added benefits of recruiting DNP-prepared nurses; showcase success strategies that can be used by schools to overcome challenges, including securing clinical sites; and provide greater clarity and guidance around the DNP final project. AACN's Board of Directors will consider these recommendations at their strategic thinking retreat in January 2015."

Again, nowhere on the AACN website does it state that experience "shows just the opposite".

7) So again I ask you...where is this "lots of research"? It really is a fascinating claim you are making and I truly do want to read all of it since there seems to be so much of it out there. Either you've read it and it exists, or you're making it up to serve your argument, and that's why you continually refuse to back up your statements.

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I just want to add that clinical experience is a form of informal education. I have learnt a lot from comments/ discussions with colleagues( a respiratory therapist actually taught me arterial sticks ), residents , surgeons and family members. Education does not always have to be formal, sit-down, expensive or fancy.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
1) I never once said experience trumps education. That was another poster

.

2) You're the one that keeps referencing things without proof. You still are yet to back up your claim with a reference.

3) I have read the AACN articles, I even linked one for you to read earlier in the thread where they themselves said more research needs to be done to improve DNP rates.

4) No where in the AACN articles, fact sheet, etc which were just updated last month does it state that experience "shows just the opposite effect". This is your post: " Do you have any research to back up that "clinical experience trumps any degree", because there are lots of research in nursing that shows just the opposite."

Your assertion is that any degree does in fact trump experience, which you say there is "lots of research" (which you yourself fail to reference).

5) It's absolutely ridiculous to demand that someone back up their claim with research, then try and refute them by stating there is research to the opposite, which you yourself have continually refused to reference. What's worse, is when you get called out on it, your response is to tell me to find it myself. How old are you? You seem to want it both ways. You call out posters to reference their statements yet for some reason you are exempt from it?

6) Here again is an important finding from a study commissioned by the AACN themselves taken from their website:

"To facilitate the continued transition to the DNP, the report authors recommend that AACN conduct outcome studies to assess the impact DNP graduates are having on patient care; provide outreach and data to employers showing the value-added benefits of recruiting DNP-prepared nurses; showcase success strategies that can be used by schools to overcome challenges, including securing clinical sites; and provide greater clarity and guidance around the DNP final project. AACN's Board of Directors will consider these recommendations at their strategic thinking retreat in January 2015."

Again, nowhere on the AACN website does it state that experience "shows just the opposite".

7) So again I ask you...where is this "lots of research"? It really is a fascinating claim you are making and I truly do want to read all of it since there seems to be so much of it out there. Either you've read it and it exists, or you're making it up to serve your argument, and that's why you continually refuse to back up your statements.

1. I provided the link to the AACN DNP reference page if you cannot find or unwilling to read it that is not my fault. The research that AACN used to justify the DNP is there if anyone cares to look.

2. Who is talking about the number/rates of DNPs?

3. I never stated that education alone trumps experience. You need both to become a good provider, but experience alone won't give you the all the tools you need to be good provider and if experience alone is all that is needed why did we move from certificate, to BSNs, to a Masters degree requirement for all APNs?.

4. What research have you or anyone else provided to show that the DNP is not working? I am not someone personal research assistant. I provided the links I cannot help it if your ignorance in how to find articles limits you to name calling and anecdotal references.

5. You have no idea what you even quoting. It doesn't matter if the DNP has been around for 20-30 years there will still be articles/papers stating more research is needed. That "more research is needed" is the catch phrase at the end of almost every research article to justify more funding/research into an area.

Research from the AACN on the DNP:

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Doctoral education in nursing forpractitioner knowledge and for academic knowledge: The University of Adelaide,Australia. Image: Journal of Nursing Scholarship, 29(4), 365-368.______. (1999). Professional midwifery doctorate a first. Australian Nursing Journal,6(9), 8-9.Last Update: June 2010

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Wtbcrna; to answer some of your questions, I will say that nursing is pushing for advance degrees because we are constantly been pushed around by other health care professions. Most hospitals want BSN nurses because they want to be ' magnet' hospitals. I work in a magnet hospital and I dare say it is a superficial designation because nothing has changed practice wise since my hospital becane magnet.

Sincerely, the only good thing I can say I took away from my BSN as is that I am now able to write/ quote Literature APA style effortlessly.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.

Professional doctorates and nursing practice contribution: a systematic literature search and descriptive synthesis. - PubMed - NCBI

The role of the Professional Doctorate in developing professional practice. - PubMed - NCBI

Here are two more articles about the DNP, and I have yet to see one peer-reviewed research article that would suggest the DNP is not increasing value for the APN.

More research may still be needed to further quantify how much the DNP will be valuable to the healthcare profession, but there is clearly enough evidence that the nursing clinical doctorate adds value for the consumer and APN especially when you consider it is voluntary degree for all APNs at this point.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
Wtbcrna; to answer some of your questions, I will say that nursing is pushing for advance degrees because we are constantly been pushed around by other health care professions. Most hospitals want BSN nurses because they want to be ' magnet' hospitals. I work in a magnet hospital and I dare say it is a superficial designation because nothing has changed practice wise since my hospital becane magnet.

Sincerely, the only good thing I can say I took away from my BSN program is that I can quote Literatures APA style effortlessly.

I hate the BSN/ADN/Diploma debate, but still the fact stands that all research so far has shown better patient outcomes for BSN graduates versus ADN or diploma graduates.

I don't think the difference will be as easy to measure with MSN versus DNPs though since all APNs have outstanding safety records to begin with, which often exceeds that of our physician colleagues.

Where I think the biggest differences we will see with APNs is bringing research into practice quicker for nurses with doctoral preparation versus MSN preparation, which over the long term will probably lead to better outcomes.

The DNP is not going to change, because a bunch of nurses sit on a online forum and gripe about it. You need to show research of why it needs to change, and be involved with the agencies that are advocating the DNP if you ever want any kind of change to happen.

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No; I am not going to convince nurses to take out loans for a degree that has not being shown to provide better patient outcomes. Instead, nurses should be encouraged to think for themselves, do what makes sense financially, and refuse to join the bandwagon

Afterall; most of these 'policy makers" and those pushing for advanced degree are not bedside nurses.

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Specializes in Internal Medicine.

1) Almost every article you have referenced is almost a decade old and the links don't work. I'm not sure where you went to school, but at least in my grad program we weren't allowed to reference anything over 5 years old. Either way, none of them back up your claim.

2.) You did state that lots of research indicates the opposite of experience trumping education (which I don't agree with either). The opposite of experience trumping education is that education trumps experience. If you can't see that both of your claims are ridiculous then I guess there's no point to arguing with you. A good practical example that we have all experienced is this: A brand new intern is going to have superior medical knowledge to an RN of 20 years experience despite the RN's greater experience, due to his advanced education. That same RN is going to be far more superior at putting in an IV than that intern thanks to her experience. Experience and education are very complimentary of each other, they aren't opposites.

3) I don't believe there is any research to show that the DNP isn't working, and I have never once made that claim, you're misrepresenting my argument. I've stated to you multiple times in this thread that I plan to get a DNP myself. I have also said that I would like to see some research showing that the DNP leads to improved patient outcomes, which the AACN has acknowledged themselves that they need to do. On the AACN's own website factsheet, they states the reason to move to DNP are these:

a) Changing demands of our complex health system require more knowledge.

b) National concerns on patient safety and increasing patient complexity.

c) Because the National Academy of sciences said we need a practice doctorate.

d) Because Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, PT, and audiology also have practice doctorates.

They cherry on top will be when they can add a bullet that says "leads to research proven superior patient outcomes".

What's wrong with me wanting more hard data over some general recommendations from over a decade ago??? Isn't the DNP all about asking questions and utilizing EBP for better outcomes at a clinical level? Well, I'm asking for evidence that shows me that a DNP trained APRN is clinically superior. Arguing with me and others on this seems to go against the very spirit of what you got your DNP for.

4) The AACN article states that they need to do actual outcomes studies, not just more research. Of course there is always room for more information/research, but what the AACN needs is just the initial baseline data, an actual study that indicates superior outcomes to justify the change.

I'm not against people getting a DNP and I'm not trying to antagonize you. What I want is more information on the "why" other than a report published over a decade ago? I don't think that's too much to ask for in our field which is based on evidence and science. A decade in our field is a very long time. I'm not sure why you take such offense to myself and other's simply asking questions. The degree is very expensive and I think the AACN and nursing overall would benefit from more info (which they have already acknowledged).

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Specializes in Adult Gerontology Primary Care NP.

Ok, now I'm just laughing. Not everyone is made for seeking information, translating, appraising, and sharing it with their colleagues, which is what you are asking to be done. That is fine, but acknowledge the reality and be grateful for those who choose to do so(and are willing to pay for it.) - and enjoy it.

I actually found similar research about experience vs education vs role transition, and how they all work for and against each other. I refuse to share it with people who clearly will use it to further their cause. Also, Do your own homework. If it isn't true, find the evidence to support your hunch... I'm sure it's out there.

Experience, people, is relative. I've seen experienced nurse do some terrible things, because that is how it was done "for years" - until someone realized it was slowly killing people or delaying their recovery, etc. Education can be relative, too. Not all nursing programs are made equal. Therefore, to argue these points is really inconsequential when the system is designed to cover up many skills people lack.

I've seen nurses(and constantly hear stories) follow hospital protocol and be reprimanded on many occasions by physicians for not following their order.

It is the charge, as RN/NP/DNP, to fight disparities, limited access, and rising costs by working together to develop equitable health care.

We can people in governing bodies are not bedside nurses, but the reality is that many of them were. Only recently could you advance so quickly. Secondly, it often takes the input of outsiders to help create change within a system. I'm happy to discuss, but this just isn't helping anyone. It only shows the limitations in certain people's flexibility of thought... If you want to be a nurse without an education, enjoy. It is your choice, but don't debase anyone for seeing beyond those innate limitations, even if it is financial. Just saying... Good luck to everyone!

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Specializes in Anesthesia.

Allcanbe who is asking you or any other nurse to convince nurses to go back to school. The DNP is optional. You either want to get the degree or you don't. The only people that it isn't a choice for is future SRNAs.

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Specializes in Adult Gerontology Primary Care NP.

In response to one simple fact: the ADN - BSN, we were discussing this over the summer and this is what was cited. Maybe it won't be enough proof for you, but it is out there.

"Posting online in August 2014 by the International Journal of Nursing Studies, a team of researchers from several nursing schools in South Korea and the University of Pennsylvania found that a 10% increase in baccalaureate-prepared nurses was associated with a 9% decrease in patient deaths in South Korean hospitals. The authors concluded that increasing the number of nurses with the BSN would significantly reduce the number of in-hospital deaths. www.journalofnursingstudies.com"

American Association of Colleges of Nursing | Page Not Found

Feel free to appraise this, I won't be offended - it is not my work. ;-)

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
1) Almost every article you have referenced is almost a decade old and the links don't work. I'm not sure where you went to school, but at least in my grad program we weren't allowed to reference anything over 5 years old. Either way, none of them back up your claim.

2.) You did state that lots of research indicates the opposite of experience trumping education (which I don't agree with either). The opposite of experience trumping education is that education trumps experience. If you can't see that both of your claims are ridiculous then I guess there's no point to arguing with you. A good practical example that we have all experienced is this: A brand new intern is going to have superior medical knowledge to an RN of 20 years experience despite the RN's greater experience, due to his advanced education. That same RN is going to be far more superior at putting in an IV than that intern thanks to her experience. Experience and education are very complimentary of each other, they aren't opposites.

3) I don't believe there is any research to show that the DNP isn't working, and I have never once made that claim, you're misrepresenting my argument. I've stated to you multiple times in this thread that I plan to get a DNP myself. I have also said that I would like to see some research showing that the DNP leads to improved patient outcomes, which the AACN has acknowledged themselves that they need to do. On the AACN's own website factsheet, they states the reason to move to DNP are these:

a) Changing demands of our complex health system require more knowledge.

b) National concerns on patient safety and increasing patient complexity.

c) Because the National Academy of sciences said we need a practice doctorate.

d) Because Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, PT, and audiology also have practice doctorates.

They cherry on top will be when they can add a bullet that says "leads to research proven superior patient outcomes".

What's wrong with me wanting more hard data over some general recommendations from over a decade ago??? Isn't the DNP all about asking questions and utilizing EBP for better outcomes at a clinical level? Well, I'm asking for evidence that shows me that a DNP trained APRN is clinically superior. Arguing with me and others on this seems to go against the very spirit of what you got your DNP for.

4) The AACN article states that they need to do actual outcomes studies, not just more research. Of course there is always room for more information/research, but what the AACN needs is just the initial baseline data, an actual study that indicates superior outcomes to justify the change.

I'm not against people getting a DNP and I'm not trying to antagonize you. What I want is more information on the "why" other than a report published over a decade ago? I don't think that's too much to ask for in our field which is based on evidence and science. A decade in our field is a very long time. I'm not sure why you take such offense to myself and other's simply asking questions. The degree is very expensive and I think the AACN and nursing overall would benefit from more info (which they have already acknowledged).

1. I don't know where you went to school or who taught you how to evaluate literature, but the 5 year old is a rule of thumb and it doesn't matter how old the literature is as long as it is still relevant. Now if you still have a problem with the references that AACN used then contact them and tell them that apparently their literature is not good enough because it is over 5 years old.

2. I believe I already stated that experience and education are necessary to make good providers.

3. Without having DNP APNs how are you going to have a comparison research? Are you wanting them to show better outcomes before they ever advocate/implement a DNP? How does that make sense? You do realize this type of research is ongoing and it will probably 10-20 years before there is enough large scale published research to show any definite outcomes difference between MSN and DNPs?.

I guess you have ignored the a few research studies I have linked showing better outcomes with a DNP.

Like I said before it isn't my job to prove that the research is there, which I have already done. I pointed that there is plenty of research to advocate APNs getting a DNP, if you have some research to say the AACN shouldn't be advocating the DNP for whatever reason then provide it. All I have seen anyone say against the DNP has anecdotal.

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