HELP DNP vs FNP

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

I actually found similar research about experience vs education vs role transition, and how they all work for and against each other. I refuse to share it with people who clearly will use it to further their cause. Also, Do your own homework. If it isn't true, find the evidence to support your hunch... I'm sure it's out there.

Wow...I guess in your DNP program it's okay to make claims that you say are supported by research, and simply not cite your reference material? I realize this is an online forum but we are all educated individuals here, many with graduate degrees and should hold ourselves to a higher standard. I want to go to a school with your standards, where the burden of proof is on the reader to look things up and not the person making the claims. It's like I'm in a forum where everyone is Glenn Beck, free to make outlandish statements stated as fact without the proof. With your logic I can make statements like I've been to outerspace, then force you to prove that I didn't, what a fun world.

My entire contention is there isn't any research about DNP clinical outcomes, because there isn't. The AACN has acknowledged this themselves. I can't reference something that doesn't exist, but I have referenced the AACN's own study saying as much.

allnurses Guide · Jul 30, 2015

http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/SharedResources/Downloads/2011/032111/NPPA_032211_DNP_Outcomes.pdf

I am posting this study again. It is not a direct comparison of MSN and DNPs, but it is still pretty telling especially how DNP graduates felt their practice has changed since becoming a DNP.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

3. Without having DNP APNs how are you going to have a comparison research? Are you wanting them to show better outcomes before they ever advocate/implement a DNP? How does that make sense? You do realize this type of research is ongoing and it will probably 10-20 years before there is enough large scale published research to show any definite outcomes difference between MSN and DNPs?.
I guess you have ignored the a few research studies I have linked showing better outcomes with a DNP.
Like I said before it isn't my job to prove that the research is there, which I have already done. I pointed that there is plenty of research to advocate APNs getting a DNP, if you have some research to say the AACN shouldn't be advocating the DNP for whatever reason then provide it. All I have seen anyone say against the DNP has anecdotal.

Not a single paper you linked demonstrated superior clinical outcomes for DNP's. Not one. Most of what you linked is from a time period before the first DNP's even graduated.

There have also been thousands of DNP's for several years now. Even if it can't be on a large scale yet, there has been plenty of time to make comparisons. I agree with your point though that APRN's are already good/safe providers to it might be difficult to prove this. It also might be counterintuitive to do this as we would be cannibalizing our own field when we should keep beating the drum of similar outcomes with other provider fields.

Again, you haven't proven a thing. What you have referenced is interesting material no doubt, but has proven nothing.

Lastly, why do you keep making the inference that I think the DNP shouldn't be advocated for? I'm not anti-DNP. God forbid I ask some questions and the forum DNP chews you up.

All I have stated over and over and over, is if the AACN wants more adherence to their goal of all APRN's transitioning to the DNP, they need to do a better job of justifying the change to APRN's and the medical community as a whole. They themselves have acknowledged this, which I have referenced for you twice now, but for some reason you like sweeping that under the rug.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/SharedResources/Downloads/2011/032111/NPPA_032211_DNP_Outcomes.pdf
I am posting this study again. It is not a direct comparison of MSN and DNPs, but it is still pretty telling especially how DNP graduates felt their practice has changed since becoming a DNP.

It says DNP graduate actions marginally reflect satisfaction of practice expectations. That doesn't sound very convincing, although it's 5 years old.

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

I also have a serious question about experience in regards to DNP admissions. It seems like many reputable schools offering an MSN-DNP program want a minimum of 1 year APRN experiencing before applying? Why do you all think that is?

I would think it's because the more experienced you are, the more you are able to identify clinical problems, thus making your capstone easier to complete.

But since there are direct BSN to dnp programs, its seems to go against that logic.

divobari · Jul 30, 2015

Wow...I guess in your DNP program it's okay to make claims that you say are supported by research, and simply not cite your reference material? I realize this is an online forum but we are all educated individuals here, many with graduate degrees and should hold ourselves to a higher standard. I want to go to a school with your standards, where the burden of proof is on the reader to look things up and not the person making the claims. It's like I'm in a forum where everyone is Glenn Beck, free to make outlandish statements stated as fact without the proof. With your logic I can make statements like I've been to outerspace, then force you to prove that I didn't, what a fun world.
My entire contention is there isn't any research about DNP clinical outcomes, because there isn't. The AACN has acknowledged this themselves. I can't reference something that doesn't exist, but I have referenced the AACN's own study saying as much.

Then continue to be confounded, my friend. It is a choice we must make all make for ourselves. I am happy to pay my program for a DNP,(or should I be embarrassed by it?) so that I can pretend that I'm better than anyone that I deem lesser than me. Again, I will not do your work for you. I can easily cite my information, but I'm not presenting anything to someone who clearly has preconceived notions and will dispute it to the bitter end, in order to be understood. What I tell people about the DNP is that there is no evidence either way and it should be a personal choice. I actually understand the point you are so forcefully trying to make. Thatnotwithstanding, I love your zeal, but you are barking at the wrong cars. :-)

allnurses Guide · Jul 30, 2015

It says DNP graduate actions marginally reflect satisfaction of practice expectations. That doesn't sound very convincing, although it's 5 years old.

Since graduating with their DNP:

"62% develop, implement/evaluate practice initiatives.

51% have increased their scope of practice

61% function to the full capacity of my role"

Also, the majority of the DNP graduates surveyed were leaders in their facilities on interdisciplinary teams, and 60-80% of these graduates utilized EBP more/translated it into their own practice and their facilities practice.

Picking that one line out of that giant survey hardly that you did hardly does it justice.

allnurses Guide · Jul 30, 2015

I also have a serious question about experience in regards to DNP admissions. It seems like many reputable schools offering an MSN-DNP program want a minimum of 1 year APRN experiencing before applying? Why do you all think that is?
I would think it's because the more experienced you are, the more you are able to identify clinical problems, thus making your capstone easier to complete.
But since there are direct BSN to DNP programs, its seems to go against that logic.

It is much easier to teach students with similar experiences, and most nurses (including myself) believe that a certain amount of experience is crucial for the APN role. That doesn't mean that there is research to support that though.

The BSN-DNP/APN is the current goal just as BSN-MSN/APN was the goal back in the 1980s. It is much easier and more cost effective for students to go from BSN-DNP then go back later and get a DNP after an MSN.

divobari · Jul 30, 2015

I realized the link is not working... not sure why.

American Association of Colleges of Nursing | The Impact of Education on Nursing Practice

Riburn3, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Jul 30, 2015

It is much easier to teach students with similar experiences, and most nurses (including myself) believe that a certain amount of experience is crucial for the APN role. That doesn't mean that there is research to support that though.
The BSN-DNP/APN is the current goal just as BSN-MSN/APN was the goal back in the 1980s. It is much easier and more cost effective to for the students to go from BSN-DNP then go back later and get a DNP after an MSN.

This makes sense. I think regardless of research and everything else we've been talking about, if the cost of the MSN-DNP were less expensive, you would see a larger influx of people going for it.

From the perspective of a BSN-DNP, although it costs more than just an MSN, it's not doubling the cost of what a BSN-MSN would be. Meanwhile, for someone like me that just graduated, I needed 49 credits for my MSN. If I go to the same school and get my DNP, that's another 45 hours. With the increased cost of tuition, I'm basically having to double down on the costs. For MSN's that have been practicing longer, it's likely 3, 4, or even 5 times as much as their original MSN (or even more). Even IF we learn tomorrow the DNP is clinically superior to MSN's and makes 10% more income, you will still have a lot of resistance just based on sheer cost.

divobari · Jul 30, 2015

This makes sense. I think regardless of research and everything else we've been talking about, if the cost of the MSN-DNP were less expensive, you would see a larger influx of people going for it.
From the perspective of a BSN-DNP, although it costs more than just an MSN, it's not doubling the cost of what a BSN-MSN would be. Meanwhile, for someone like me that just graduated, I needed 49 credits for my MSN. If I go to the same school and get my DNP, that's another 45 hours. With the increased cost of tuition, I'm basically having to double down on the costs. For MSN's that have been practicing longer, it's likely 3, 4, or even 5 times as much as their original MSN (or even more). Even IF we learn tomorrow the DNP is clinically superior to MSN's and makes 10% more income, you will still have a lot of resistance just based on sheer cost.

Amen!! The main concern IS the cost - and is a legitimate one. Too often, it is camouflaged with anything to debase the value of continued education - at any level.

allnurses Guide · Jul 30, 2015

I totally understand about costs. My doctorate cost about 45k, and the only way I could afford it was to use my Montgomery GI bill. My MSN was 82 semester credit hours.

Some universities are offering their previous MSN grads a shortened DNP program by giving them credit for their previous course work.

A doctorate is always going to be an expensive endeavor. It just depends who is paying the expense on how much the student will have to pay. With PhD students the faculty is often getting someone to work for them. The school gets a large percentage of research grants so they often see it as a way of having cheap well educated labor in exchange for decreased tuition. The other big expense of doctoral education is that most of instructors have to be doctorates themselves.

With a DNP the expense for the program is usually footed by the student themselves.