Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
I agree whole heartedly that FREE healthcare is not a right. There are a ton of problems with the US healthcare system but there is a reason people head to the US for medical care. I laugh when I hear ignorant individuals say how much better Canadas health care system is. These are the same people who walk into our ERs and get on the spot treatment constantly and wouldn't know what to do if that was taken away from them. Which is exactly what would happen if we followed the Canadian model. I know there are some excellent medical professionals up there and many of them (like OP) end up in the US.
I agree whole heartedly that FREE healthcare is not a right. There are a ton of problems with the US healthcare system but there is a reason people head to the US for medical care. I laugh when I hear ignorant individuals say how much better Canadas health care system is. These are the same people who walk into our ERs and get on the spot treatment constantly and wouldn't know what to do if that was taken away from them. Which is exactly what would happen if we followed the Canadian model. I know there are some excellent medical professionals up there and many of them (like OP) end up in the US.
Wrong. How many people in the US get instant treatment in the ER???? By every measure the US has a crappy healthcare system compared to other developed countries. And you assert that the good medical professionals in Canada come to US? Right - just an anecdote not backed up by fact. And if that were true, Canada would have poorer health outcomes, but the opposite is true. And the OP is in school and is not a medical professional. If the OP manages to finish school, he will be a NURSING professional.
The definition of rights change over time as societies and values change. There was a time when slavery was considered to be ok. Now we view slavery as reprehensible and have outlawed it.
Most Americans now view healthcare as a right and even the AMA shares this view.
The OP says he is a Libertarian. However, libertarians are considered a fringe group, even among conservatives. He can believe whatever he wants, but his belief system is fundamentally incompatible with nursing values and practice.
To the OP: the nurses on this forum have to live in the real world. Values do affect actions. Why don't you tell us how your values will make you a good nurse? Why should nursing as a profession adopt your values? You always dodge pointed questions on how your beliefs translate into practice. If you can't address these types of questions, your arguments are pointless.
If the OP manages to finish school, he will be a NURSING professional.
Well, I don't think I'm going to breeze through school or anything, it'll be hard work, but I'm very academically competitive. The work ethic of the kids at school is brutal already. We're 1 week in and they just Facebook in class. lol
Specializes in All areas of Critical Care, ED, PACU, Pre-Op, BH,.
The definition of rights change over time as societies and values change. There was a time when slavery was considered to be ok. Now we view slavery as reprehensible and have outlawed it.
Most Americans now view healthcare as a right and even the AMA shares this view.
The OP says he is a Libertarian. However, libertarians are considered a fringe group, even among conservatives. He can believe whatever he wants, but his belief system is fundamentally incompatible with nursing values and practice.
To the OP: the nurses on this forum have to live in the real world. Values do affect actions. Why don't you tell us how your values will make you a good nurse? Why should nursing as a profession adopt your values? You always dodge pointed questions on how your beliefs translate into practice. If you can't address these types of questions, your arguments are pointless.
I totally agree! I think the OP is in the very beginning of school for nursing. They have not experienced near enough exposure to a system that they have already formulated beliefs on. From what I have read from the OP; their "beliefs" are just the far right rhetoric propaganda that they push. I truly don't think the OP is going to be happy being a nurse. The OP will feel patients are getting too much that they don't deserve. The OP doesn't realize, that is NOT our job to decide who gets healthcare or not. We are to care for all patients equally. I must care for the child molester (that is in custody) that comes in the ER or PACU the same as the bank executive. It is not our job to judge them.
I'm Canadian living in the US (married an American), and I would take Canada's health care system any day over the system here. The only "edge" the US has that I've seemed to notice in my time here, is that the clinics/offices are much more aesthetically-pleasing and expensive-looking... not really a requirement for quality health care.
I have Type 1 Diabetes and it's insane here in the US. $275/insulin vial vs $30 (of course, I can only get it partially covered if I buy 3 vials at a time now which is way out of reach and my deductible hasn't been reached yet, but paying 20% on $600+ is still a lot for me and that's only for one of the insulins I take). People, mostly Americans, are swapping their diabetes supplies -including expired ones, on Facebook groups just for the price of shipping because cost is so out of hand here. I am insured through my employer and the coverage is meh and I work for a large, international corporation. My coverage at a much smaller employer in Canada was better. I am currently using recently expired rapid-acting insulin that I originally received in Canada in 2015. I am going home for Christmas and will be purchasing insulin in my hometown in Canada. My visit at an endocrinology clinic with a NP was around $300 here in Southern US. My visit with an endocrinologist (the best one I've had!) in Quebec was free and they ordered more comprehensive lab work. Sure, that waiting room/hospital was fugly and the waiting room was very full, but my care was perfect.
My husband is currently uninsured and at home with a possible inguinal hernia. He's in a lot of pain, but has been refusing for days to go to the ER because of the cost and what a gigantic medical bill would do to us. I'm not a nurse yet - I'm doing prereqs, so I am currently the only one employed grossing a bit under $25k/year (my husband lost his job after STD wasn't approved for his depression because he didn't have a "history" with the doc who filled out the paperwork.. He had no doc prior! and I paid with my HSA for his appointment with my family doctor, but all proper care for his mental health problems have been out of reach). You don't know how much I wish he was in Canada right now just to at least have his abdominal pain attended to. No wait in the US (which I think is largely inaccurate) means nothing when you feel like the price of care is too much of a barrier to even get to the ER in the first place. Plus, in Canada I didn't have to wait and wait and wait in emerg when I presented with high glucose (not in DKA) and suspected I had diabetes. My care was very "wham bam thank you ma'am." But that's the difference between something that can become a real emergency quickly (ending up in DKA) and someone showing up with a headache...
I like lots about the US and where I live, but this ain't it.
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
I remember when in the 1990s Canada had a contract with the University of California San Francisco Children'd Hospital for sick babies and children to be flown there from the Northwest Territories for care. The most common was repair of a congenital heart defect. Often one or both parents would fly with their child.
Ontario Ministry of Health has agreements with some Detroit hospitals for imaging tests, bariatric, heart and other services that have long waiting lists in Ontario.
Rather than paying out of pocket for crossing the border, the bill is paid by the plan, sort of like staying with an in network doctor if you have private insurance in the U.S.
Specializes in All areas of Critical Care, ED, PACU, Pre-Op, BH,.
I'm Canadian living in the US (married an American), and I would take Canada's health care system any day over the system here. The only "edge" the US has that I've seemed to notice in my time here, is that the clinics/offices are much more aesthetically-pleasing and expensive-looking... not really a requirement for quality health care.
I have Type 1 Diabetes and it's insane here in the US. $275/vial vs $30 (of course, I can only get it partially covered if I buy 3 vials at a time now which is way out of reach and my deductible hasn't been reached yet, but paying 20% on $600+ is still a lot for me and that's only for one of the insulins I take). People, mostly Americans, are swapping their diabetes supplies -including expired ones, on Facebook groups just for the price of shipping because cost is so out of hand here. I am insured through my employer and the coverage is meh and I work for a large, international corporation. My coverage at a much smaller employer in Canada was better. I am currently using recently expired rapid-acting insulin that I originally received in Canada in 2015. I am going home for Christmas and will be purchasing insulin in my hometown in Canada. My visit at an endocrinology clinic with a NP was around $300 here in Southern US. My visit with an endocrinologist (the best one I've had!) in Quebec was free and they ordered more comprehensive lab work. Sure, that waiting room/hospital was fugly and the waiting room was very full, but my care was perfect.
My husband is currently uninsured and at home with a possible inguinal hernia. He's in a lot of pain, but has been refusing for days to go to the ER because of the cost and what a gigantic medical bill would do to us. I'm not a nurse yet - I'm doing prereqs, so I am currently the only one employed grossing a bit under $25k/year (my husband lost his job after STD wasn't approved for his depression because he didn't have a "history" with the doc who filled out the paperwork.. He had no doc prior! and I paid with my HSA for his appointment with my family doctor, but all proper care for his mental health problems have been out of reach). You don't know how much I wish he was in Canada right now just to at least have his abdominal pain attended to. No wait in the US (which I think is largely inaccurate) means nothing when you feel like the price of care is too much of a barrier to even get to the ER in the first place. Plus, in Canada I didn't have to wait and wait and wait in emerg when I presented with high glucose (not in DKA) and suspected I had diabetes. My care was very "wham bam thank you ma'am." But that's the difference between something that can become a real emergency quickly (ending up in DKA) and someone showing up with a headache...
I like lots about the US and where I live, but this ain't it.
Which is why so many people are having such strong issues with this very subject in the political arena. We realize how it is hurting real people and it breaks our heart.
I read this entire thread and noticed the suggestion of charities and such voluntarily paying for people's health care who aren't able to pay for it themselves instead of health care being paid for via taxes.
There was a Type 1 Diabetic who needed insulin, so he set up a gofundme.
I totally agree! I think the OP is in the very beginning of school for nursing. They have not experienced near enough exposure to a system that they have already formulated beliefs on. From what I have read from the OP; their "beliefs" are just the far right rhetoric propaganda that they push. I truly don't think the OP is going to be happy being a nurse. The OP will feel patients are getting too much that they don't deserve. The OP doesn't realize, that is NOT our job to decide who gets healthcare or not. We are to care for all patients equally. I must care for the child molester (that is in custody) that comes in the ER or PACU the same as the bank executive. It is not our job to judge them.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about my political worldview, and myself in general. I'm hardly far right, I'm right leaning on some issues, left leaning on others. When did I ever suggest that I'm interested in discriminating against anyone?? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single post.
I remember when in the 1990s Canada had a contract with the University of California San Francisco Children'd Hospital for sick babies and children to be flown there from the Northwest Territories for care. The most common was repair of a congenital heart defect. Often one or both parents would fly with their child.
The NWT Health Care Plan paid for this.
I believe there others.
I met a nurse who lives and works in Houlton Maine who gets all her healthcare in Canada. She holds dual citizenship.
The provinces and territories still pay for out of country care if there are no beds available. A while back the NICUs were full and babe and parents went South and the government paid their living expenses.
Funny, someone mentioned an inguinal hernia. We had three come through our Emerg for immediate surgery in the last ten days. All had surgery within 26 hours of presenting at the hospital and were home within 24 hours.
But hey, our system doesn't work according to some posters. And yes, our waiting rooms and ward rooms aren't pretty and don't have TV but hey, you get what the tax system will support.
What if I wanted to pay for an MRI tomorrow though, and shoulder surgery in the fastest possible time? The reason I'm asking is my friend recently flew to Florida to have this done because he got tired of waiting. Have you also heard of people flying to the US to get faster care, or would you say that's not very common in your experience?
There are "rapid access" services in Canada, although they seem more common in Western Canada, you can pay an upcharge at these clinics to avoid waits.
The practice of coming to the US for faster care is actually extremely rare, I've worked at a hospital that would have been the likely recipient of these patients, I never saw a single Canadian who came their intentionally for care. This is a good article on the subject: Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The United States
Stories about Canadians who come here seem to always refer to the same story, a woman named Shona Holmes who was diagnosed with a non-life threatening brain mass. People often here "brain mass" and assume it's a malignancy, and therefore they are going to die without quick treatment. In reality, these masses are most commonly not removed, just monitored as the risk of surgery often outweighs the benefits. Ms. Holmes however wanted immediate surgery and the Mayo Clinic in Arizona was more than happy to operate without much wait for $100,000, this is a surgery that typically should cost about $14,000. Unless you're willing to go someplace that will happily rip you off, the wait for this surgery is about the same in the US.
Mini2544, ASN, RN
159 Posts
I agree whole heartedly that FREE healthcare is not a right. There are a ton of problems with the US healthcare system but there is a reason people head to the US for medical care. I laugh when I hear ignorant individuals say how much better Canadas health care system is. These are the same people who walk into our ERs and get on the spot treatment constantly and wouldn't know what to do if that was taken away from them. Which is exactly what would happen if we followed the Canadian model. I know there are some excellent medical professionals up there and many of them (like OP) end up in the US.