Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
I work in Canada and it's not uncommon for us to fix the mess made by foreign surgeons.
We have people who don't want to follow the rules and procedures to qualify for bariatric surgery. They fly to Mexico and come home. And when complications develop the Province pays $$$$ to fix them. One patient I remember had more than $1million spent on fixing her issues.
Knee surgeries done in a private clinic in BC? Complications, guess who pays for the treatment of the post op infections? Yup, the province.
Hip replacements done in India or Eastern Europe? Complications and physio? Sure let the province pay.
Right. People are more than willing to pay for the procedure but gawd forbid there are post op complications because the province pays to fix it.
And don't even start me on Americans who come North without travel insurance and expect to have surgery here for free. I recall a few years back there was a poster who wanted to travel to Canada to deliver so she didn't have to pay for the birth. Uhm, our admitting department knows where y'all live and do collect.
I'm tired of hearing that you always have to wait here. No, if it's an emergency, you get treated right away. And people know this. A couple of trips to Emerg and you get your gallbladder out. Otherwise you do wait six weeks for a non-urgent choli.
Thirty years ago hip and knee replacements were not the norm. Neither was Cataract surgery. But now, people expect them as their right/entitlement.
Universal healthcare was never set up for that. It was set up to provide care for urgent surgeries, births, end of life care. Not IVF, not bariatric surgery, not breast reductions.
I work in Canada and it's not uncommon for us to fix the mess made by foreign surgeons.
We have people who don't want to follow the rules and procedures to qualify for bariatric surgery. They fly to Mexico and come home. And when complications develop the Province pays $$$$ to fix them. One patient I remember had more than $1million spent on fixing her issues.
Knee surgeries done in a private clinic in BC? Complications, guess who pays for the treatment of the post op infections? Yup, the province.
Hip replacements done in India or Eastern Europe? Complications and physio? Sure let the province pay.
Right. People are more than willing to pay for the procedure but gawd forbid there are post op complications because the province pays to fix it.
And don't even start me on Americans who come North without travel insurance and expect to have surgery here for free. I recall a few years back there was a poster who wanted to travel to Canada to deliver so she didn't have to pay for the birth. Uhm, our admitting department knows where y'all live and do collect.
I'm tired of hearing that you always have to wait here. No, if it's an emergency, you get treated right away. And people know this. A couple of trips to Emerg and you get your gallbladder out. Otherwise you do wait six weeks for a non-urgent choli.
Thirty years ago hip and knee replacements were not the norm. Neither was Cataract surgery. But now, people expect them as their right/entitlement.
Universal healthcare was never set up for that. It was set up to provide care for urgent surgeries, births, end of life care. Not IVF, not bariatric surgery, not breast reductions.
Very interesting post Fiona!! I only have one friend who's gone to the US, I didn't realize it was so common. It's not right to expect a province to cover the costs in my opinion, especially if you've opted for privatized health care.
I don't know the stats, but what would you say it's more expensive to cover, things like urgent surgeries, births, end of life care. Or IVF, bariatric surgery, and breast reductions?
I work in Canada and it's not uncommon for us to fix the mess made by foreign surgeons.
We have people who don't want to follow the rules and procedures to qualify for bariatric surgery. They fly to Mexico and come home. And when complications develop the Province pays $$$$ to fix them. One patient I remember had more than $1million spent on fixing her issues.
Knee surgeries done in a private clinic in BC? Complications, guess who pays for the treatment of the post op infections? Yup, the province.
Hip replacements done in India or Eastern Europe? Complications and physio? Sure let the province pay.
Right. People are more than willing to pay for the procedure but gawd forbid there are post op complications because the province pays to fix it.
And don't even start me on Americans who come North without travel insurance and expect to have surgery here for free. I recall a few years back there was a poster who wanted to travel to Canada to deliver so she didn't have to pay for the birth. Uhm, our admitting department knows where y'all live and do collect.
I'm tired of hearing that you always have to wait here. No, if it's an emergency, you get treated right away. And people know this. A couple of trips to Emerg and you get your gallbladder out. Otherwise you do wait six weeks for a non-urgent choli.
Thirty years ago hip and knee replacements were not the norm. Neither was Cataract surgery. But now, people expect them as their right/entitlement.
Universal healthcare was never set up for that. It was set up to provide care for urgent surgeries, births, end of life care. Not IVF, not bariatric surgery, not breast reductions.
Just so I understand you correctly, paying out of pocket yielded the better result for you?
Please post to the subject of the thread and refrain from name-calling and mud-slinging.
Say only what you would say in front of a group of professionals.
Thank you.
I would say the exact same thing, but generally I do not have to, because I am speaking with actual professionals. Since we cannot correct someone that willfully misinforms or inaccurately reflects we, the nurses, the forum loses credibility. I don't believe posts that represent poor nursing values should be tolerated on the forum. Why isn't that in the terms of service?
I can understand where your coming from. I've always been able to take care of my myself. I devote my life to serving the public but in return I get sub par health insurance that now costs me quite a bit more in an effort to insure others I guess. It's disappointing.
I really hesitated to jump in on this, but here I go.
I think healthcare should be a right solely from an empathetic and ethical point of view. Who are we so say that, because I was born healthy and without an expensive chronic illness to manage, that I don't have the duty as another human being to help someone who does? Heck, I could get into a car accident on my way home from my shift today and owe hundreds of thousands in medical bills even with my insurance. I don't think that due to someone's outstanding circumstances or genetic predisposition that they deserve to be financially ruined.
There are plenty of things I wish my paycheck didn't go to, from wars to corporate tax breaks, but I still pay. I would be delighted to know my money was going towards something that, while doesn't benefit me directly now, was helping another human being. It's not just about taxation, it's the right thing to do for the benefit of everyone, especially for those most vulnerable.
Just so I understand you correctly, paying out of pocket yielded the better result for you?
Only if you don't have complications.
I truly believe if the province is expected to pay to fix your elective surgery done out of country/province, you should be billed for it.
A knee replacement in Europe runs around $15K. Corneal transplants in the US, roughly $14K. Bariatrics and plastic surgeries in Mexico and the US are far cheaper.
IVF, bariatric, cosmetic surgeries (in most cases) are wants not needs and Universal Healthcare was not intended to cover these item.
Yes, Bariatric surgeries improves quality of life, increases life expectancy, reduces the possibility of Diabetes, but most obesity is self inflicted. People paid for those calories but expect the province to pick up the cost of fixing it. Personally, I feel the province should pay for gym memberships and Weight Watchers for bariatric patients and only do the surgery when a weight loss programme has been started. Most bariatric clinics require some sort of weight loss prior to surgery. But there needs to be good psych support.
Most provinces don't pay for IVF itself but are required to pick up the costs of the complications. Some women don't do well with the preparation treatments and then there are the costs of the multiple births and resulting NICU costs. Parenthood isn't a right. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Cosmetic surgeries? Breast implants? Porifice reductions (well, if there are skin infections in the hanging folds, yes, it should be covered) There will always be cosmetic surgeries that should be covered, burn patients come to mind. "I don't like my nose", no that shouldn't be covered but if you know what to say you will get it covered.
Corneal thinning is not unknown after LASIK type procedures. The patient pays for LASIK but the province fixes the problems down the road. People need to see, you only get issued with one set of eyes.
So, yes, I think if you pay for a procedure to be done privately you should be billed to fix whatever goes wrong.
Well Ontario denies that's happening. The difference would be, why can't one get a tax credit for paying for their own health care?
You are years out of date if you believe that the Ontario government and public deny that their are private services for diagnostic tests such as MRIs, endoscopies and surgeries such as hernia repair. The ministry of health, health care providers and patients know all about these services as they are available for OHIP funded and third party funded patients and have been for many years.
You are years out of date if you believe that the Ontario government and public deny that their are private services for diagnostic tests such as MRIs, endoscopies and surgeries such as hernia repair. The ministry of health, health care providers and patients know all about these services as they are available for OHIP funded and third party funded patients and have been for many years.
I may very well be.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Dishes... are the services covered by OHIP at private clinics OR are Ontarians allowed to pay for OHIP insured services themselves without OHIP involved?
In Alberta there are private MRI clinics. You might be able to claim it back from work based extended benefits or use it as a medical expense on your taxes.
In Alberta there are private MRI clinics. You might be able to claim it back from work based extended benefits or use it as a medical expense on your taxes.
What's odd is that I wasn't making it up, my friend actually flew to Florida for his shoulder because he was waiting too long. So it must not be pushed here, or there's a catch I'm missing? Why would people leave if they have privatized health care here?
Fiona59
8,343 Posts
I work in Canada and it's not uncommon for us to fix the mess made by foreign surgeons.
We have people who don't want to follow the rules and procedures to qualify for bariatric surgery. They fly to Mexico and come home. And when complications develop the Province pays $$$$ to fix them. One patient I remember had more than $1million spent on fixing her issues.
Knee surgeries done in a private clinic in BC? Complications, guess who pays for the treatment of the post op infections? Yup, the province.
Hip replacements done in India or Eastern Europe? Complications and physio? Sure let the province pay.
Right. People are more than willing to pay for the procedure but gawd forbid there are post op complications because the province pays to fix it.
And don't even start me on Americans who come North without travel insurance and expect to have surgery here for free. I recall a few years back there was a poster who wanted to travel to Canada to deliver so she didn't have to pay for the birth. Uhm, our admitting department knows where y'all live and do collect.
I'm tired of hearing that you always have to wait here. No, if it's an emergency, you get treated right away. And people know this. A couple of trips to Emerg and you get your gallbladder out. Otherwise you do wait six weeks for a non-urgent choli.
Thirty years ago hip and knee replacements were not the norm. Neither was Cataract surgery. But now, people expect them as their right/entitlement.
Universal healthcare was never set up for that. It was set up to provide care for urgent surgeries, births, end of life care. Not IVF, not bariatric surgery, not breast reductions.