Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
Specializes in All areas of Critical Care, ED, PACU, Pre-Op, BH,.
Alternatively we could provide service and bill them...
I'm confused though, are you saying asking someone to pay their own bill for services is not compassionate and empathetic???
well if they are homeless or poor? They have no means to pay it. I don't think you get the fact that our tax dollars for ALL the social programs including the poor person's healthcare costs us $36.00 a year? I do not mind paying that as an American taxpayer. The homeless or the poor have no logical means to pay that bill.
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
How do you feel about the two tier system as a whole? Are there quality differences in care, and if so, do you think that's okay in your opinion?
In my large metropolitan area there are differences in care. In general not for profit hospital quality is superior to for profit, but there are too many exceptions to use that as a guide.
Last decade one of our county hospitals had to close. MANY nurses, family members, and others had reported it to the state and federal government for violations causing unsafe care. The last straw was a patient death cause my insufficient nursing staff.
For several decades previous that had been one of the best hospitals in the country. It still was for trauma care, but after the patients left the ICU staffing was so bad, worst in town and undeniably unsafe. I know because I sometimes worked there as a registry nurse in critical care.
California nurses finally achieved our ratios in 2004. Our worse staffed hospitals improved the most.
Many hospitals in other states and other countries provide sufficient staffing most of the time. But some are unsafe every shift.
Studies show that California hospitals average better outcomes than other states. Remember this does not mean ALL the out of state hospitals are unsafe.
State-Mandated Nurse Staffing Levels Lead to Lower Patient Mortality and Higher Nurse Satisfaction
Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, September 26, 2012
The California safe staffing law has increased nurse staffing levels and created more reasonable workloads for nurses in California hospitals, leading to fewer patient deaths and higher levels of job satisfaction than in other states without mandated staffing ratios. Despite initial concerns from opponents, the skill mix of nurses used by California hospitals has not declined since implementation of the mandated ratios.
Implications of the California Nurse Staffing Mandate for Other States
Health Services Research, August 2010
The researchers surveyed 22,336 RNs in California and two comparable states, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, with striking results, including: if they matched California state-mandated ratios in medical and surgical units, New Jersey hospitals would have 13.9 percent fewer patient deaths and Pennsylvania 10.6 percent fewer deaths.
Because all hospitalized patients are likely to benefit from improved nurse staffing, not just general surgery patients, the potential number of lives that could be saved by improving nurse staffing in hospitals nationally is likely to be many thousands a year,†according to Linda Aiken, the study's lead author.
California RNs report having significantly more time to spend with patients, and their hospitals are far more likely to have enough RNs on staff to provide quality patient care.
Fewer California RNs say their workload caused them to miss changes in patient conditions than New Jersey or Pennsylvania RNs.
My state has really bad mental healthcare because treating that population is a money sink - they can't pay for it, the insurance often only covers so much of it, and the state is unable to finance community level mental healthcare - cause of the "taxes bad" thing. Lets just put it this way - not much in the community because no funding, hospitals are a business, business exist to make money and having a psychiatric unit is a net lost for the hospital. So there aren't many of them.
As someone who specializes in criminal psychiatry - I see so many crimes that could have been prevented if someone just had access to care. I'm talking the forensic report comes in that details a family trying desperately to get their kid some kind of help because they've identified that something terrible is going on with him/her mentally and are unable to get enough care to really help that family member. Then the patient gets arrested and come to me in maximum security after doing something like... chasing their family down with a chainsaw, burning their family's house down, decapitating their elderly next door neighbor, shooting up their school, or seriously hurting their children.
All I can do at that point is medicate them and try and help them regain competence to stand trial.
Like sure you could go with the no taxes, free market stuff - which is fine for discussing theories. How this plays out in reality though? Is not good. A lot of preventable death - just in my field though - it's not the patients that die.
Yes I distilled socialism down to theft through taxation. Love for you to prove to me it's not.
Also, feel free to attempt to prove health care is a right, it'll be a first in this thread... so I'm all ears.
I don't believe you know enough about socialism to debate it. There's nothing to debate if you do not have knowledge about the subject. Read up about it and generate a perspective if you want to have a debate. You can't just read free market perspective you actually have to read the pro socialist perspective as well.
Plenty of people proved to you through WHO and other sources healthcare is a right.
While I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm you greatly overestimate your ability to argue these subjects. I would encourage you to do some reflecting. If you were Ayn Rand I would not have a problem with your view, but Ayn Rand's cannit be nurses. That's where I have a problem. Please read up on Ayn Rand since you do not know who that is as well.
In my large metropolitan area there are differences in care. In general not for profit hospital quality is superior to for profit, but there are too many exceptions to use that as a guide.
Last decade one of our county hospitals had to close. MANY nurses, family members, and others had reported it to the state and federal government for violations causing unsafe care. The last straw was a patient death cause my insufficient nursing staff.
For several decades previous that had been one of the best hospitals in the country. It still was for trauma care, but after the patients left the ICU staffing was so bad, worst in town and undeniably unsafe. I know because I sometimes worked there as a registry nurse in critical care.
California nurses finally achieved our ratios in 2004. Our worse staffed hospitals improved the most.
Many hospitals in other states and other countries provide sufficient staffing most of the time. But some are unsafe every shift.
Studies show that California hospitals average better outcomes than other states. Remember this does not mean ALL the out of state hospitals are unsafe.
Is there a difference between the two tier systems of the US and say Canada or Australia? Or all two tier systems similar in your opinion?
I don't believe you know enough about socialism to debate it. There's nothing to debate if you do not have knowledge about the subject. Read up about it and generate a perspective if you want to have a debate. You can't just read free market perspective you actually have to read the pro socialist perspective as well.
Plenty of people proved to you through WHO and other sources healthcare is a right.
While I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm you greatly overestimate your ability to argue these subjects. I would encourage you to do some reflecting. If you were Ayn Rand I would not have a problem with your view, but Ayn Rand's cannit be nurses. That's where I have a problem. Please read up on Ayn Rand since you do not know who that is as well.
Again, this is a logical fallacy. Argument from authority.
Again, this is a logical fallacy. Argument from authority.
I'm not arguing with you. In fact, I said I wasn't. I can certainly speculate that you don't have knowledge about a subject. That's an opinion that I have, about you, which I chose to express. I have not made it the basis of an argument, but the reason for my disinterest in arguing to begin with. And I don't claim to be an authority. So it's not a logical fallacy. But nice try.
I'm not arguing with you. In fact, I said I wasn't. I can speculate that you don't have knowledge about a subject. That's an opinion that I have, about you. I have not made it the basis of an argument, but the reason for my disinterest in arguing to begin with. And I don't claim to be an authority. So it's not a logical fallacy. But nice try.
You misunderstood... the argument, the WHO says it's a right, therefore makes it a right, is a logical fallacy. I didn't mind your speculations, although they don't deal with the argument either.
You misunderstood... the argument, the WHO says it's a right, therefore makes it a right, is a logical fallacy. I didn't mind your speculations, although they don't deal with the argument either.
First of all I didn't make the WHO argument, someone else did. You just said I made that argument, which I didn't. I mentioned that person as an example of someone who was willing to argue with you. But if you don't respect WHO's interpretation of the human right of health, I would like even less to do with you, as I believe you shouldn't be involved in nursing. Please, you do not impress me, so stop trying so hard.
suzil
98 Posts
well if they are homeless or poor? They have no means to pay it. I don't think you get the fact that our tax dollars for ALL the social programs including the poor person's healthcare costs us $36.00 a year? I do not mind paying that as an American taxpayer. The homeless or the poor have no logical means to pay that bill.