Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
First of all I didn't make the WHO argument, someone else did. You just said I made that argument, which I didn't. I mentioned that person as an example of someone who was willing to argue with you. But if you don't respect WHO's interpretation of the human right of health, I would like even less to do with you, as I believe you shouldn't be involved in nursing. Please, you do not impress me, so stop trying so hard.
I'm not trying to impress you... and what does that have to do with anything? lol
Do you really want to play semantics? You didn't make the actual argument but you agree with it.
Plenty of people proved to you through WHO and other sources healthcare is a right.
You're opinion of me is irrelevant to the argument. Also, you're more than welcome to have nothing to do with me, no one is keeping you here. Feel free to move along.
I'm not trying to impress you... and what does that have to do with anything? lol
Do you really want to play semantics? You didn't make the actual argument but you agree with it.
You're opinion of me is irrelevant to the argument. Also, you're more than welcome to have nothing to do with me, no one is keeping you here. Feel free to move along.
Then why do you insist on dragging me into something I have no interest in. If they (those who made the Who argument) didn't prove to you anything (other than you probably shouldn't be in nursing, that's pretty clearly established) take it up with them. Plenty of other have made pretty good arguments and you've said very little yourself. You aren't an ametuer troll that's for sure.
I agree with it because it's a principle of nursing and governs my practice. I can open up some books now and they would reflect the statement by Who. If you had gone to nursing school, which I no longer believe you have done, you would understand the relevance to the subject.
If I wanted to move along, I would. Topics are for sharing opinions, not just fake arguments by naive, arrogant trolls who create those topics.
Well Ontario denies that's happening. The difference would be, why can't one get a tax credit for paying for their own health care?
I'm not sure how that would benefit them. If someone receives $100k worth of treatment, but can pay for it themselves, giving them a $10k tax break for instance would still result in them paying far more.
Then why do you insist on dragging me into something I have no interest in. If they (those who made the Who argument) didn't prove to you anything (other than you probably shouldn't be in nursing, that's pretty clearly established) take it up with them. Plenty of other have made pretty good arguments and you've said very little yourself. You aren't an ametuer troll that's for sure.
I agree with it because it's a principle of nursing and governs my practice. I can open up some books now and they would reflect the statement by Who. If you had gone to nursing school, which I no longer believe you have done, you would understand the relevance to the subject.
If I wanted to move along, I would. Topics are for sharing opinions, not just fake arguments by naive, arrogant trolls who create those topics.
Holy smokes, it's like you didn't read the thread at all. I never said I went to nursing school, I said I am in nursing school.
In my experience trolls like attention, and don't actively encourage others to leave conversations. I said feel free to leave, because you said you wanted nothing to do with me...
Do whatever you wish, doesn't matter to me, but at least try and stick to the argument. Either way, all the best. :)
I'm not sure how that would benefit them. If someone receives $100k worth of treatment, but can pay for it themselves, giving them a $10k tax break for instance would still result in them paying far more.
That argument suggests that there would be zero benefit to a two tier system then. Which is why I asked about privatized health care quality earlier. I'd say if someone is choosing to spend $100k worth of treatment, they're getting better treatment, faster. Or you're correct, they'd just stay in the public system.
Holy smokes, it's like you didn't read the thread at all. I never said I went to nursing school, I said I am in nursing school.
In my experience trolls like attention, and don't actively encourage others to leave conversations. I said feel free to leave, because you said you wanted nothing to do with me...
Do whatever you wish, doesn't matter to me, but at least try and stick to the argument. Either way, all the best. :)
If you think that there is a big difference in the phrase "going to nursing school" and "being in nursing school", there's some proof that you greatly overestimate your abilities.
Trolls like attention. That's for sure. You certainly proved that.
I said I wasn't going to contribute to any argument with you, and I do not have to. You are not someone who I hold in high enough regard to argue with about this. I am on topic sharing my opinion: that people who do not respect the central dogma of nursing that the Who statement reflects, should not be in nursing.
I don't like nurses who shouldn't be in nursing, who do not follow the central dogma. I do not respect them or their opinions, especially in a forum for nurses where they misrepresent us.
"All the best". Wanted to say that too, since that apparently makes the content of my post friendly if I say that.
Health care is provided to all, in the form of hospitals, that in the US (due to EMTALA) can never refuse a patient. This means, at no cost to you, an entire health care system is ready and waiting anytime you want it. You don't pay for this, and if you can't pay, you still get the service. If you are in my county, you expect police, fire, and medical services if you have an emergency. I believe your argument is completely false. Healthcare is paid for by the people who pay. There are people who don't pay, and these costs are shifted to payers in the form of higher costs. This cost shifting essentially means that society, (or everyone) is paying for the care. If you told me that you have no health insurance, and you wouldn't come to trauma center if you got shot, I declare BS. It is interesting that that left leaning socialist organization, the United Nations, declare health care a basic human right. Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations. Would you also tell me that an indigent child should die for lack of health care? I think not.
If you think that there is a big difference in the phrase "going to nursing school" and "being in nursing school", there's some proof that you greatly overestimate your abilities.
Trolls like attention. That's for sure. You certainly proved that.
I said I wasn't going to contribute to any argument with you, and I do not have to. You are not someone who I hold in high enough regard to argue with about this. I am on topic sharing my opinion: that people who do not respect the central dogma of nursing that the Who statement reflects, should not be in nursing.
I don't like nurses who shouldn't be in nursing, who do not follow the central dogma. I do not respect them or their opinions, especially in a forum for nurses where they misrepresent us.
"All the best". Wanted to say that too, since that apparently makes the content of my post friendly if I say that.
Technically, the difference was actually "gone" to nursing school (past tense), not "going" (present tense).
So let me get this straight, you have no interest in the argument itself. You just want to hop on the thread, and tell me how much you don't like me? Love it.
If I've said something that's not "friendly" towards you, please direct me to my post. Otherwise, I think I've just simply disagreed with you.
How do you feel about the two tier system as a whole? Are there quality differences in care, and if so, do you think that's okay in your opinion?
Two tier systems exist in a number of countries and are similar to how it already works in Canada. In Toronto for instance everyone receives basic medical care, if you want things like a private room, better food,etc then you can go to Toronto hospitals like Mt Sinai and pay an upcharge for those things yourself.
Two tier systems exist in a number of countries and are similar to how it already works in Canada. In Toronto for instance everyone receives basic medical care, if you want things like a private room, better food,etc then you can go to Toronto hospitals like Mt Sinai and pay an upcharge for those things yourself.
What if I wanted to pay for an MRI tomorrow though, and shoulder surgery in the fastest possible time? The reason I'm asking is my friend recently flew to Florida to have this done because he got tired of waiting. Have you also heard of people flying to the US to get faster care, or would you say that's not very common in your experience?
What if I wanted to pay for an MRI tomorrow though, and shoulder surgery in the fastest possible time? The reason I'm asking is my friend recently flew to Florida to have this done because he got tired of waiting. Have you also heard of people flying to the US to get faster care, or would you say that's not very common in your experience?
I've lived in both the US and Canada. I've heard of people that have gone to the United States for procedures but I never met them and generally the procedures I've heard of were more of a luxury thing and not a necessity. I worked healthcare close to the mexican border for a while and knew many Americans that went to mexico to get care for necessary things like rashes, chest congestion and prescription medications. Which I guess was preferable to when I lived in the Southern US (I was not well off and lived in an area where getting shot or robbed was a part of life) and knew people that would take fish antibiotics cause no one could afford healthcare (before obamacare).
Sure if you're well off you can get an MRI and surgery tomorrow here. If you're not and can't afford a decent insurance plan? It's rough.
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
In 1994 I injured my shoulder. At first I thought it would get better .After a couple weeks I went to my knees with pain pulling off the blue cover on an IV bag.
I went to my doctor the next day. He told me not to move if it hurt and referred me to an orthopedic specialist.
My insurance was PacifiCare. (I paid part and the hospital paid part of the premiums,)
PacifiCare told me I had to wait 2 weeks for authorization to see the specialist. My doctor, who is my doctor now too, filled out state disability forms for me.
After two weeks of pain I saw the orthopod.He did and X-ray and ordered an MRI.
Another two weeks to get the authorization AND a week to send the result to the orthopod.
Then two more weeks for authorization to return to the specialist.
He gave me a referral to PT. Two more weeks. (Why do I feel like I'm typing a Laurel and Hardy skit?)
Finally I went in pain with a frozen shoulder to PT. My hero, Nancy told me I'd havd to do a lot at home because I only had authorization for 3 visits. I did one a week. Doing PT by myself every day with equipment I purchases did get me healing and able to move my arm.
Without the silly PacifiCare policies I could have been off work a couple weeks. As it was I was in pain for EIGHT WEEKS OF WAITING FOR AUTHORIZATIONS FOR CARE MY PHYSICIANS ORDERED.
This was a for profit corporation traded on the stock market with multi million dollar compensation denying care.
Thankfully it wasn't a life or death condition.
Six years later my other shoulder was hurt. I had the same insurance because without an employer policy I could not afford insurance.
My doctor was going to send me to a PacifiCare specialist. I told him I would pay myself so I didn't have to wait. He then referred me to a better orthopedic surgeon. She sent me right to PT. That PT center was able to start me right away and get the authorization via FAX.
That ortho Doc only took Medicare as payment. She had her insured patients send in paperwork to be reimbursed after paying her.
Tetra
131 Posts
I'm not trying to impress you... and what does that have to do with anything? lol
Do you really want to play semantics? You didn't make the actual argument but you agree with it.
You're opinion of me is irrelevant to the argument. Also, you're more than welcome to have nothing to do with me, no one is keeping you here. Feel free to move along.