Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
What is the point of this discussion? Nurses are paid a salary or hourly rate. They must care for the patients assigned to them. Period. I don't give a damn about political views of my patients when I am caring for them, nor do I worry about how or whether they are going pay.
Yet you care about the political views of a complete stranger on the internet? Do we need to rehash that shibaowner... Lets just say I really don't believe you. lol
What would be wrong with a true two tier system where insured services are also offered privately? Have those who pay for their own health care insurance get a tax credit.
^^^ why would this not be a palatable solution to you?
This is not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know your thoughts on two tier.
Then the people who wish to pay for the bills of others are welcome to do so.
I don't think there is anyone who "wishes to pay for the bills of others". What we've established as a society is that we aren't going to deny people healthcare services that prevent unnecessary suffering and death. Those services cost money, how would you suggest we provide these services without having to pay for them in some way?
Alternatively we could provide service and bill them...
I'm confused though, are you saying asking someone to pay their own bill for services is not compassionate and empathetic???
That's how it theoretically works in the US, and it doesn't work. You can bill someone making $40k a year a $500,000 hospital bill all you want, you can't squeeze money from a stone. This is why medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US, in which case the hospital gets no money, and why hospitals often calculate what amount someone would pay before declaring bankruptcy and bill that amount, even though that amount might fall far short of what they cost.
What would be wrong with a true two tier system where insured services are also offered privately? Have those who pay for their own health care insurance get a tax credit.
^^^ why would this not be a palatable solution to you?
This is not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know your thoughts on two tier.
Insured services are also offered by private providers in Ontario, The Cleveland Clinic for instance has a clinic in Toronto, so I'm not what you're saying should be different.
As to why the superrich should stay pay into the pooled fund for healthcare, nobody gets rich completely independent of the health of their society. Their income is dependent on healthy employees, healthy consumers, etc. Should someone who owns a trucking company be exempt from road taxes because they themselves don't drive?
Insured services are also offered by private providers in Ontario, The Cleveland Clinic for instance has a clinic in Toronto, so I'm not what you're saying should be different.
Well Ontario denies that's happening. The difference would be, why can't one get a tax credit for paying for their own health care?
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
I am very glad to be a citizen in a Democracy.
I have voted in each election since I turned 21 in 1965. Never missed one even some low turnout local ones with only one item on the ballot.
I have paid taxes since my first job in 1959.
My country has waged wars I did not agree with. For example it hurt my soul when we started and continue the Iraq war in 2003. I protested many times against that war.
Yet part of my taxes helps pay for war.
Is that fair? Maybe not, but what is the alternative? An overwhelming majority of voters did agree with that war, at least at the time it was started.
Medicare is loved and appreciated by an overwhelming majority of old and/or disabled people who receive it.
A very few wealthy people would prefer not to have it. They are angry their taxes help pay for other's healthcare when they believe they can do much better on their own.
In a democracy government is by the majority of people.
Is there a better alternative to Democracy?
OR: Vote for people who promise to repeal Medicare. That would require convincing people to vote for them. At this time most voters in the United States want to keep Medicare.
A sizable minority want it improved and expanded to include ALL Americans.
Anyway I again say I am glad to live in a Democratic country.
Definition of democracy
a : Government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections...
PS: A citizen who disapproves of tax money being used for the cosmetic ear pinning procedure can work to get it off the list of approved procedures. After all Prince Charles and President Obama seem to be OK without it.
As to why the superrich should stay pay into the pooled fund for healthcare, nobody gets rich completely independent of the health of their society. Their income is dependent on healthy employees, healthy consumers, etc. Should someone who owns a trucking company be exempt from road taxes because they themselves don't drive?
How do you feel about the two tier system as a whole? Are there quality differences in care, and if so, do you think that's okay in your opinion?
Yet you care about the political views of a complete stranger on the internet? Do we need to rehash that shibaowner... Lets just say I really don't believe you. lol
I don't care what you think of me. I don't tolerate fools gladly.
I have voted in each election since I turned 21 in 1965. Never missed one even some low turnout local ones with only one item on the ballot.
I have paid taxes since my first job in 1959.
My country has waged wars I did not agree with. For example it hurt my soul when we started and continue the Iraq war in 2003. I protested many times against that war.
Yet part of my taxes helps pay for war.
Is that fair? Maybe not, but what is the alternative? An overwhelming majority of voters did agree with that war, at least at the time it was started.
Medicare is loved and appreciated by an overwhelming majority of old and/or disabled people who receive it.
A very few wealthy people would prefer not to have it. They are angry their taxes help pay for other's healthcare when they believe they can do much better on their own.
In a democracy government is by the majority of people.
Is there a better alternative to Democracy?
OR: Vote for people who promise to repeal Medicare. That would require convincing people to vote for them. At this time most voters in the United States want to keep Medicare.
A sizable minority want it improved and expanded to include ALL Americans.
Anyway I again say I am glad to live in a Democratic country.
PS: A citizen who disapproves of tax money being used for the cosmetic ear pinning procedure can work to get it off the list of approved procedures. After all Prince Charles and President Obama seem to be OK without it.
(At the risk of going off topic, the US is not a democracy. If it were, Hillary Clinton would be president right now, and Al Gore would have been president instead of Shrub. If it were, we would already have at least a "public option"/Medicare option available to the general public, if not a true single-payer system. If it were, lots of things would be different in this country, not all of them positive changes. Mob rule is a risky business. :) )
Tetra
131 Posts
Yet you care about the political views of a complete stranger on the internet? Do we need to rehash that shibaowner... Lets just say I really don't believe you. lol