This Sunday's Parade Magazine featured their annual report "What People Earn." Always very interesting but...if you look on page 4, there is a colorful box listing jobs that do not require a college degree. Here's the list: Sales Representatives, Translators, Dental Hygienists, Registered Nurses, Insurance Adjusters, Transportation Workers, Athletic Trainers, Auto Technicians, and Legal Secretaries. Shocking to say the least. I hope I won't be the only one writing to this magazine to correct this terrible misconception.:angryfire
An associates degree is great! Lots of hard work can go into getting one just like a trade from many Trade Schools... HOWEVER, It is basically common knowledge that an Associates Degree (in all but a few select fields) will not GENERALLY yield the holder/earner of said degree, what is GENERALLY considered a well paying, and progressive job.
If you fail to see why Degrees on the Bachelor level and higher are often considered "real" degrees or why Associate Degrees are often (not always) called "baby degrees", then it might do you good to really get out there and see whats required for MOST (not all) well paying jobs that are coupled with nice working conditions and hours.
USUALLY when businesses or technical occupations state that the applicant must hold a college degree, they are not talking about an Associates Degree. As a RN and as a person who holds an Associates Degree, I would hope that you'd be cognizant of such.
One reason why many occupation require/prefer a 4yr degree at a minimum, is because virtually ALL (note the word "virtually") technical degrees from a 4yr "National" University (U.S. Universities that confer BA, BS, MA, MS, and Doctorals) require their students to have all or some, of the following NON SURVEY / NON INTRODUCTORY science and or math credits:
1. Bio chemistry, General Chemistry, Organic Chemistry
2. Trig, Pre-calculus, Calc I, II and III
3. Physics
Now, lets just say that you've been working ICU for 15 years, and you're excellent at it! You get tired of the drudgery, hours, and conditions at the hospital vs. your pay ratio. You find yourself wanting more.. You want to apply to CRNA school, but most schools say you have to have a 4yr degree first, BSN or Science related field (
Which applicant do you think is generally in the better position for future financial security??
The person with a 4yr degree in Engineering, Physics, or Chemistry and a 3.8 GPA, OR the RN with an ADN and 15 years ICU experience?
The bottom line is that most PA and Med Schools won't consider you without you having earned a 4yr degree first. Who would most likely do better on the MCAT? The nurse with 15yrs ICU experience, or the 22 year old with a 4yr degree in Bio Chemistry?
* In most cases, EDUCATION trumps experience. Many learn this the hard way. How many times have we heard "I can't believe she/he comes in here with a Masters Degree and little experience and is in charge of us AND is getting paid a handsome purse, and she/he doesn't know jack!"
For those who have say 10 or more years prior military experience, just getting a BSN (with little to no nursing experience afterwards), then going back on active duty yields the same pay as many nurse practitioners. A Bachelors Degree not only matters, but often matters a lot.
The 4yr degree holder has many options (especially in a non-nursing technical field). He/she can easily apply the math/science credits to a BSN, PA, and or Anesthesia Assist program.
Those with an AA/AS Degree usually don't have such lattitude. The Bachelors Degree isn't an imaginary standard that BA/BS degree holders laud- but rather a very realistic standard and "gate", thats been in place by not only our Nation's Government, but most businesses and firms here in the U.S. when hiring for what is usually considered the "better", "good", or "nice paying" jobs (input your own adjective).
Because the BS/BA degree is so versatile, Business (regardless of the field) and students alike, generally consider the 4yr degree as the "standard". 20 years ago, A High School Diploma was the first step.. but that was 20 years ago.
This is an interesting thread to me because I was actually put off by our local ADN program that required 2 years of prereqs, then 2 years nursing curriculum. The first thing that came to my mind was why would I do that for an ADN, when I can obtain a BSN, in less than 4 years. There is no speed limit on how fast you can CLEP or complete the non-nursing courses.
Your ADN, AS, or AA degree is no less important. You busted your butt, studied hard and got a degree when most people will only have a high school diploma. You've done something with yourself and should be darn proud! I don't think anyone here is knocking your degree, the work you put into it, nor your position in life.
If you fail to see why Degrees on the Bachelor level and higher are often considered "real" degrees or why Associate Degrees are often (not always) called "baby degrees", then it might do you good to really get out there and see whats required for MOST (not all) well paying jobs that are coupled with nice working conditions and hours.
USUALLY when businesses or technical occupations state that the applicant must hold a college degree, they are not talking about an Associates Degree. As a RN and as a person who holds an Associates Degree, I would hope that you'd be cognizant of such.
Ok, teiladay. I'm not only "out there and aware", I'm also cognizant of what each degree entails, what it means, what's required, and where each one is likely to lead. I was never, ever confused about the terms, and since many of my family members are educated at the bachelor's level, masters' level (and above) I was able to scan through virtually all (but not all) of your post.
However, I think you're making a point that isn't in debate. The purpose of this thread was to vent the ire of some people about the wording of a newspaper article, an article in which it declared "No Degree Required". Many people were angry about the insinuation it gave about a career in nursing as a whole, and there were others (like myself as one) to point out that the article was NOT incorrect. It was true. You and I are not in disagreement there. My Associates in Nursing is NOT required for me to have sat for the NCLEX-RN, so while I may not like that the layperson will think RNs have the same education level as the "office nurse" (medical assistant), it isn't the fault of the newspaper.
I do take issue with the idea you seem to put forth, that the newspaper might have carefully thought out "hmm, we're going to say "no degree required" because most people know an A.S. isn't really a degree, so if we say "no degree" they'll know we mean B.S...." See what I mean? That line of thinking was never in play here, we all know that.
For what it's worth, with everything you wrote about the finer points of a Bachelor's education and how it leads to higher earning positions than an Associates (and that's all true), I honestly don't find people in the general world (NOT employers, just people walking the roads of life with me) who bother to distinguish an Associates from a Bachelor's. Employers, yes. If I were applying to be an electrical engineer at Boeing, it'd matter. In the real world elsewhere, it does not. People are only curious if someone holds a college degree, or sometimes from where. I have never, ever once heard anyone say "Oh, when I asked if you went to college, I meant X University or something. Since you only went to the community college, and that's not really a degree, I guess you didn't REALLY go to college". ROFL at that fantasy exchange!
Ok, teiladay. I'm not only "out there and aware", I'm also cognizant of what each degree entails, what it means, what's required, and where each one is likely to lead. I was never, ever confused about the terms, and since many of my family members are educated at the bachelor's level, masters' level (and above) I was able to scan through virtually all (but not all) of your post.
However, I think you're making a point that isn't in debate. The purpose of this thread was to vent the ire of some people about the wording of a newspaper article, an article in which it declared "No Degree Required". Many people were angry about the insinuation it gave about a career in nursing as a whole, and there were others (like myself as one) to point out that the article was NOT incorrect. It was true. You and I are not in disagreement there. My Associates in Nursing is NOT required for me to have sat for the NCLEX-RN, so while I may not like that the layperson will think RNs have the same education level as the "office nurse" (medical assistant), it isn't the fault of the newspaper.
I do take issue with the idea you seem to put forth, that the newspaper might have carefully thought out "hmm, we're going to say "no degree required" because most people know an A.S. isn't really a degree, so if we say "no degree" they'll know we mean B.S...." See what I mean? That line of thinking was never in play here, we all know that.
For what it's worth, with everything you wrote about the finer points of a Bachelor's education and how it leads to higher earning positions than an Associates (and that's all true), I honestly don't find people in the general world (NOT employers, just people walking the roads of life with me) who bother to distinguish an Associates from a Bachelor's. Employers, yes. If I were applying to be an electrical engineer at Boeing, it'd matter. In the real world elsewhere, it does not. People are only curious if someone holds a college degree, or sometimes from where. I have never, ever once heard anyone say "Oh, when I asked if you went to college, I meant X University or something. Since you only went to the community college, and that's not really a degree, I guess you didn't REALLY go to college". ROFL at that fantasy exchange!
Boeing is not the real world? It may not be YOUR world, but it is part of the real world.
RNsRWe - I agree that the writers of the "no degree needed" blip weren't consciously thinking "ah, well, an associate's isn't REALLY a college degree..." but I do think they were thinking of a 4-yr college degree when they came up with their list. "Hmm... what jobs pay fairly well that don't require a college degree?"
If someone says "I have a degree in history" I'm going to assume they mean a bachelor's degree. If I then find out they got their degree from XXX Community College, I'd have to correct my assumption and would then realize that they meant they have an associate's degree.
In my experience in the "real world" when a job asks for a "college graduate" they mean someone with a bachelor's degree even though thousands of people graduate from community colleges with associate's degrees each semester.
RNsRWe - I agree that the writers of the "no degree needed" blip weren't consciously thinking "ah, well, an associate's isn't REALLY a college degree..." but I do think they were thinking of a 4-yr college degree when they came up with their list. "Hmm... what jobs pay fairly well that don't require a college degree?"
If someone says "I have a degree in history" I'm going to assume they mean a bachelor's degree. If I then find out they got their degree from XXX Community College, I'd have to correct my assumption and would then realize that they meant they have an associate's degree.
In my experience in the "real world" when a job asks for a "college graduate" they mean someone with a bachelor's degree even though thousands of people graduate from community colleges with associate's degrees each semester.
Here are two that I readily know about. Sentara Norfolk General has had an RN school since 1892 and Watts, which is right down the road from me, has been around since 1895. Sentara's website says it is one of six diploma programs remaining in Virginia.
The reason their graduates are becoming rare are because THE SCHOOLS themselves are becoming rarer and rarer.
So you don't technically need a degree to become an RN, and places still exist where you can do that. What they're not telling you is that it takes just as long to get a diploma as an ADN, and it can cost a whole lot more - Sentara seemed to be pretty reasonably priced (Sentara IS a big conglomerate), but Watts here in Durham is ten grand a year each year for two years.
I think diploma nurses have an outstanding education and are probably the most technically clean student nurses out there. They spend HOURS on the floor - hours that those of us in ADN and BSN programs just can't get. So while I know I'm getting an outstanding education, I'm more than a bit jealous of those fortunate enough to go to diploma programs - not just for the education, but because they've taken part in a wonderful tradition. Hospital schools used to be the only formal training programs for nursing. How wonderful to be a part of that.
Watts is the school I will be attending in a couple of months. At this school you obtain an Associates degree of Health Science by way of Mount Olive College (where you do all your pre-req's), and a diploma from Watts. It's a 4 semester program (5 including pre-req's). Yes it does cost a lot but Duke University Health System, which is the hospital Watts is associated with, pays for tuition reimbursement (of all tuition) if you agree to work with them (I have no problem with that its Duke by all means). I'm kinda glad that I will be apart of the tradition and will be going for a Bachelors degree right after I graduate (hopefully in Biochemistry).
I started my journey to become an RN in 2004 but never took the pre-req's because I was in the Army it was hard to. I just got out this past September and applied to Nursing School 3 weeks later knowing I had only A & P I and humanities (I had other courses but it applies to business not nursing). Well the school took their chance with me and accepted me and I am grateful for that.
There are many reasons why people go for whatever degree they go for. Many go for ADN/ASN because its more affordable, or closer to home or even because their local university may be under probation for NCLEX results. For those that are attending BSN's you know why you went, it could be faster for you than the ADN or diploma, or because its closer, or because you want to live the real college life and live in a dorm.
Ways of obtaining your RN is very versatile and works for many people and I like that fact. I don't think anyone should look down at someone for obtaining their degree (or diploma) the way they did. When I was in the Army I was hospitalized in Iraq and in Texas and dealt with many great nurses, the medical community are hero's to many (please remember that!). Anyway you obtained your RN your cool with me . I would like to have a diploma, ADN, or BSN nurse to be my nurse anyday (not forgetting LPN's either).
That is correct! If you choose the diploma route, you may use the diploma only in the state you obtained it. This means those private schools you go to and pay big bucks for, because the waiting list at the college is 3-4 years long.
That is correct! If you choose the diploma route, you may use the diploma only in the state you obtained it. This means those private schools you go to and pay big bucks for, because the waiting list at the college is 3-4 years long.
I'm not sure I understand. I obtained my diploma in Nebraska, but I am practicing nursing in Colorado. It has nothing to do with what type of education you have, a nursing license is the same for all types.
That is correct! If you choose the diploma route, you may use the diploma only in the state you obtained it. This means those private schools you go to and pay big bucks for, because the waiting list at the college is 3-4 years long.
Check your facts.
Diploma programs are alive & well in some parts of the country.
My licensure is in no way restricted to the state in which I went to school.
If you choose the diploma route, you may use the diploma only in the state you obtained it. This means those private schools you go to and pay big bucks for, because the waiting list at the college is 3-4 years long.
As others have pointed out, this is not a correct statement. Many alumni from the diploma program I am currently enrolled in are employed in other states (and considered by many to be some of the best trained nurses around!).
That is correct! If you choose the diploma route, you may use the diploma only in the state you obtained it. This means those private schools you go to and pay big bucks for, because the waiting list at the college is 3-4 years long.
Diploma nurse since 1980, have worked north carolina, south carolina, california, ohio and have been education, CQI manager. etc.. Like some one else said here , we are alive and well, and will continue to be. I like what others have said. Nurses have well defined , difficult schooling , no matter what type of degree you have. We all do a difficult job with little praise from admin and sometimes the people we care for. After 30 years of admin , er and ICU in major hospital systems, I really see little difference between degrees, diploma's etc. The true test isn't your score on the NCLEX or your paper with the ribbon around it at graduation. The true test is when you are standing at a critical pt's bed and you can think on your feet, or how you care for a dying old man or child and their family, how you can put pt assmt together with x-ray, lab , hemodynamics with new orders to make sure some intern isn't going to kill the pt while your on shift.
PsychRN-Kris
53 Posts
Well put! :)