Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

Nurses General Nursing

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This was being discussed on a specialty forum, but it applies universally to hospital nurses, so here goes:

Getting Paid for End-of-Shift Overtime

If a Nurse needs to stay an extra hour after a 12-hour shift to finish (which is a likely scenario for a fresh grad), does a Union make sure she gets paid for that hour, where non-Union hospitals may take the attitude, "Well, it's your fault you didn't finish, so you're on your own time..." I heard of a "friend of a friend" who routinely puts in extra time at the end of a shift at a large Manhattan hospital, but NEVER gets paid...now, I won't name the hospital, because I've never actually spoken to him and the problem may be that he fails to fill out the necessary paperwork (he's a bit "unorganized"). At one of my clinical sites, the Recruiting Office at a smaller Bklyn hospital said it does NOT pay for end-of-work overtime, because it feels the nurse failed to arrange her time appropriately....What are your thoughts?:idea: It's not as if a nurse can leave EARLY if she's completed all her meds and notes...she must stay until the end of the shift and if something happens a minute before the shift ends, she absolutely should be paid to stay and take care of it if needed to do so (even if her replacement nurse has arrived, but needs assistance).

Why does anybody need to hear any more than that to be convinced?

To contrast, at my non-union job (in California) if you stay over "incidentally" and clock out 15 minutes or a half hour after your scheduled shift ends, the administrator manually goes into the system and removes that late punch. He falsifies the time clock record. You may have charted something at 1615, but the time clock says you left the building at 1530. This is illegal in CA (see prev. posts).

We should be ALL be union nurses - we have the power to make it so that you cannot hire a nurse in these United States without negotiating a union contract. We absolutely have that power, yet we don't do it.

We would rather trust our rights to...

...our employer?

I don't understand people.

I need to hear a whole lot more than that to be convinced. I have seen too many incompetent workers protected by unions. I have seen excellent nurses who could not receive merit raises for doing a fantastic job, while slack disgraces to the profession not only could not be fired but had to receive the same pay as the good nurses, or even more, if they had seniority. I have seen nurses let down their co-workers due to a contractual clause that paid them 1 1/2 for working on their off weekend, so they called out every weekend they were scheduled and put themselves on to work their weekends "off." I have seen nurses sit and do their knitting all night long, then begin doing their charting after report, so they could collect OT, all protected by the union. I have seen aides who were fired after it was proved they caused a leg fracture by an unsafe transfer, only to be forced by union grievance to be brought back. I've seen nurses who demanded that a fingerstick blood sugar remain unassessed rather than allow a supervisor to check it, because checking fingersticks was a "union job." Only once was I ever glad that the nurses were unionized, in a situation where a nurse was victimized by a worthless manager.

I resent your proposal that nurses be forced into unions whether they want to join or not. That technically may be a closed or a union shop, but to me it's slavery. Like being forced to join a political party in order to get a job. If you have an administrator who's violating the labor laws, he needs to be reported to the NLRB and the state. A union isn't going to stop him from falsifying records.

I don't understand you.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Why does anybody need to hear any more than that to be convinced?

To contrast, at my non-union job (in California) if you stay over "incidentally" and clock out 15 minutes or a half hour after your scheduled shift ends, the administrator manually goes into the system and removes that late punch. He falsifies the time clock record. You may have charted something at 1615, but the time clock says you left the building at 1530. This is illegal in CA (see prev. posts).

We should be ALL be union nurses - we have the power to make it so that you cannot hire a nurse in these United States without negotiating a union contract. We absolutely have that power, yet we don't do it.

We would rather trust our rights to...

...our employer?

I don't understand people.

:banghead:

I don't need a union for that.

I get paid for my incidental overtime. And with a critical care ratio of 2:1, I'm NOT squeezed on the job.

Unions are only a periphery issue to this discussion. In fact, the ONLY time I DIDN'T get fairly compensated for my incidental overtime was when I worked under a union contract.

So, if you want to use anecodotal evidence, I'd have to say, based on personal experience, that unions are culprits to being cheated out of incidental overtime.

Of course, there are good and bad administrations, AND there are good and bad unions. That's a fact. You are better protected seeking out jobs that have either a good administration OR a good union. And both exists out there, just like the bad ones of both exist.

~faith,

Timothy.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

See, I think the problem w/ incidental overtime tends to be an issue w/ newer nurses. That was the case for ME when I was new.

And newer nurses are intimidated not to complain. That dynamic has the capability to exist in either union OR non-union shops.

Administrations tend consider newer nurses to be all too disposable and unions tend to be more concerned w/ those that hold seniority.

Simply put, a union grievance or a complaint to administration by a new employee is just not given the same priority as one from a tenured nurse.

I freely admit that both the last comments are generalizations.

It is confidence and seniority at issue here, not union status.

The fact is that once a nurse gets to the point where she has the knowledge and experience to speak up for himself, by that point, in many cases, incidental overtime is not at issue.

I was treated quite shabbily in a union environment my first year as a nurse in regards to incidental overtime.

I'm wiser and smarter. That WILL never happen again, no matter whether I work in a union shop - or not. But, see, I've grown as a nurse as well. I simply do not put in that much incidental overtime anymore.

This kind of abuse just tends to prey on newer nurses. Part of the reason it happens is BECAUSE those nurses don't yet have the confidence to stand up for themselves. And THAT is regardless of union status.

~faith,

Timothy.

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you got to get yo $$

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Specializes in ICU, Cardiac Cath/EPS Labs.

Good analysis of the priorities of hospitals, unions, and new nurses...again, this Web site provides invaluable "water cooler" intelligence re: what goes on in the real world. Thanks.

See, I think the problem w/ incidental overtime tends to be an issue w/ newer nurses. That was the case for ME when I was new.

And newer nurses are intimidated not to complain. That dynamic has the capability to exist in either union OR non-union shops.

Administrations tend consider newer nurses to be all too disposable and unions tend to be more concerned w/ those that hold seniority.

Simply put, a union grievance or a complaint to administration by a new employee is just not given the same priority as one from a tenured nurse.

I freely admit that both the last comments are generalizations.

It is confidence and seniority at issue here, not union status.

The fact is that once a nurse gets to the point where she has the knowledge and experience to speak up for himself, by that point, in many cases, incidental overtime is not at issue.

I was treated quite shabbily in a union environment my first year as a nurse in regards to incidental overtime.

I'm wiser and smarter. That WILL never happen again, no matter whether I work in a union shop - or not. But, see, I've grown as a nurse as well. I simply do not put in that much incidental overtime anymore.

This kind of abuse just tends to prey on newer nurses. Part of the reason it happens is BECAUSE those nurses don't yet have the confidence to stand up for themselves. And THAT is regardless of union status.

~faith,

Timothy.

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I resent your proposal that nurses be forced into unions whether they want to join or not. That technically may be a closed or a union shop, but to me it's slavery.

I don't understand you.

**

Hmm. To me the definition of slavery is working without getting paid (which is what I am obligated to do at my non-union job). It sounds like that's a concept you are okay with as long as it does not affect you personally at this particular time. It's a shame that we do not stick together as a profession.

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I don't need a union for that.

I get paid for my incidental overtime. And with a critical care ratio of 2:1, I'm NOT squeezed on the job.

Unions are only a periphery issue to this discussion. In fact, the ONLY time I DIDN'T get fairly compensated for my incidental overtime was when I worked under a union contract.

So, if you want to use anecodotal evidence, I'd have to say, based on personal experience, that unions are culprits to being cheated out of incidental overtime.

Of course, there are good and bad administrations, AND there are good and bad unions. That's a fact. You are better protected seeking out jobs that have either a good administration OR a good union. And both exists out there, just like the bad ones of both exist.

~faith,

Timothy.

**

First off, can you plaese quit propogating the RightSpeak definition of this? Quit watering it down by calling it "incidental" overtime. It is UNPAID overtime. If it is paid, then it is just overtime.

If you worked under a union contract and it was weak, why do you think that is? Is it because of the union or because of the right-wing mission to eliminate all unions? Your side has been quite successful, especially in recent years, and all of their success is to the detriment of the working person.

By the way, it is not called "right to work" legislation it is called union-busting. Those who support union-busting support UNPAID overtime. It's your politicians with corporate backing (hospitals, HMO's drug companies, etc.).

Most of our unions have been weakened, crippled. In many ways your side is winning. So you vote for the people who pick apart workers rights and bust up unions... and then point to a union that has been crippled by this as an example of why unions don't work. Classic.

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If you make less than $400,000 a year (which most nurses do) and you vote Republican, you are a sheep.

...that's the truth they never want you to hear.

Yeah, it's all about stem cells and gay marriage, isn't it Mr. President? That's what really matters.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
**

First off, can you plaese quit propogating the RightSpeak definition of this? Quit watering it down by calling it "incidental" overtime. It is UNPAID overtime. If it is paid, then it is just overtime.

If you worked under a union contract and it was weak, why do you think that is? Is it because of the union or because of the right-wing mission to eliminate all unions? Your side has been quite successful, especially in recent years, and all of their success is to the detriment of the working person.

By the way, it is not called "right to work" legislation it is called union-busting. Those who support union-busting support UNPAID overtime. It's your politicians with corporate backing (hospitals, HMO's drug companies, etc.).

Most of our unions have been weakened, crippled. In many ways your side is winning. So you vote for the people who pick apart workers rights and bust up unions... and then point to a union that has been crippled by this as an example of why unions don't work. Classic.

It's called 'incidental' overtime whether you get paid for it or not. That's just to distinguish it from 'scheduled' overtime. It's not 'rightspeak'; it's a form of clarification: we are talking about extra time AFTER a shift that is 'incidental' to that shift; not extra overtime shifts.

And I'm republican because republican means caring. I care about the little guy and I'm interested in the individual being able to pull him/herself up and not just labeling him/her into some class and wringing my hands and crying about how 'I care'.

But, again, that last para is off topic. Just as politics is completely off topic to this discussion. Pres. Bush or Bill Frist or 'The Hammer' isn't out there denying nurses their overtime. You can make the connections all you want; but that speaks to your political polarization; not reality.

In reality, political parties are like professional wrestlers. There are 'good' guys and 'bad' guys and they huff and bluster. But if you actually believe it all; you're just being entertained.

But, I believe that it was Clinton that wanted to legislate 'Comp Time' in favor of overtime a few years ago . . . that's exactly how I got denied MY OT pay in a gov't Job during the Clinton administration. No thanks. Been there, been screwed like that before.

http://www.house.gov/ed_workforce/issues/108th/workforce/familytime/clinton.htm

~faith,

Timothy.

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Specializes in ICU, Research, Corrections.
See, I think the problem w/ incidental overtime tends to be an issue w/ newer nurses. That was the case for ME when I was new.

And newer nurses are intimidated not to complain. That dynamic has the capability to exist in either union OR non-union shops.

Administrations tend consider newer nurses to be all too disposable and unions tend to be more concerned w/ those that hold seniority.

Simply put, a union grievance or a complaint to administration by a new employee is just not given the same priority as one from a tenured nurse.

I freely admit that both the last comments are generalizations.

It is confidence and seniority at issue here, not union status.

The fact is that once a nurse gets to the point where she has the knowledge and experience to speak up for himself, by that point, in many cases, incidental overtime is not at issue.

I was treated quite shabbily in a union environment my first year as a nurse in regards to incidental overtime.

I'm wiser and smarter. That WILL never happen again, no matter whether I work in a union shop - or not. But, see, I've grown as a nurse as well. I simply do not put in that much incidental overtime anymore.

This kind of abuse just tends to prey on newer nurses. Part of the reason it happens is BECAUSE those nurses don't yet have the confidence to stand up for themselves. And THAT is regardless of union status.

~faith,

Timothy.

Hey Timothy,

I am in that same position RIGHT NOW. The rules have changed though - overtime for patient care, comp time (that is hard to get) for charting. The last two nights I have had to stay late 1.5 hours for PATIENT CARE. I first have to call the supervisor and say why I am staying late and then tell her when I leave. If it for patient care I have to give a complete report about why I am still there!

To me, this is sending the wrong message to new nurses. It is like telling me hey, do all your charting and ignore your patients. I understand people abuse the system and stay late on purpose to chart - but why the heck am I being punished for it:banghead:

I am in the same union you were....I plan to file a grievance WHEN I HAVE TIME. I am not expecting too much from my grievance :p

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**

Hmm. To me the definition of slavery is working without getting paid (which is what I am obligated to do at my non-union job). It sounds like that's a concept you are okay with as long as it does not affect you personally at this particular time. It's a shame that we do not stick together as a profession.

Hmm. You conveniently snipped the numerous examples I gave of union nursing gone bad. Apparently, your definition of sticking together as a profession is that I roll over and agree with you.

You've made several attempts to politicize this discussion, despite being told that it's off-topic here--I am not a moderator, but I know this--and hurled insults at anyone who doesn't toe your line. I completed several courses in labor studies in college (do the BSNs learn about that??) and am quite well versed in the reasons for unions and the legislative history. I used to be very pro-union, but can no longer say that, based on my observations over the past thirty years, not only in nursing, but in other industries. It seems you are promoting blacklisting of nurses who don't want to join a union. If they don't join, they can't work anywhere. For someone who professes to hate the right wing, you should review the history of the fascists and look for the similarities.

Did I mention my undergrad degree is in political science?? And that I registered as a Democrat from 1976 until 1992, when I went independent?

FWIW, how do you know your administrator who's doctoring the timecards isn't a registered Democrat? Scumbags come in all political persuasions.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Don't even answer, for what you are contributing we can all just listen to Rush or Hannity.

You're right about that, in the context that I'm responding to comments that could come right out of a soon defunct Air America broadcast.

But, when we aren't interjecting politics, I have actually said quite a few things about incidental overtime.

And I'm sure neither Hannity nor Rush would have any idea what I was talking about.

But you are just making my argument that bringing politics into the discussion is just a side show to an otherwise valid topic of nursing discussion.

Besides, political discussions are why we have premium forums on this site. Sign up for a premium account, and I'll gladly talk politics w/ you until we are both blue in the face (although I'll be blue in a red state. LOL.) I love a good political debate . . . in the right forum.

~faith,

Timothy.

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