Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

[nyforlove]

This was being discussed on a specialty forum, but it applies universally to hospital nurses, so here goes:

Getting Paid for End-of-Shift Overtime

If a Nurse needs to stay an extra hour after a 12-hour shift to finish (which is a likely scenario for a fresh grad), does a Union make sure she gets paid for that hour, where non-Union hospitals may take the attitude, "Well, it's your fault you didn't finish, so you're on your own time..." I heard of a "friend of a friend" who routinely puts in extra time at the end of a shift at a large Manhattan hospital, but NEVER gets paid...now, I won't name the hospital, because I've never actually spoken to him and the problem may be that he fails to fill out the necessary paperwork (he's a bit "unorganized"). At one of my clinical sites, the Recruiting Office at a smaller Bklyn hospital said it does NOT pay for end-of-work overtime, because it feels the nurse failed to arrange her time appropriately....What are your thoughts? It's not as if a nurse can leave EARLY if she's completed all her meds and notes...she must stay until the end of the shift and if something happens a minute before the shift ends, she absolutely should be paid to stay and take care of it if needed to do so (even if her replacement nurse has arrived, but needs assistance).

[steelydanfan]

I need to hear a whole lot more than that to be convinced. I have seen too many incompetent workers protected by unions. I have seen excellent nurses who could not receive merit raises for doing a fantastic job, while slack disgraces to the profession not only could not be fired but had to receive the same pay as the good nurses, or even more, if they had seniority. I have seen nurses let down their co-workers due to a contractual clause that paid them 1 1/2 for working on their off weekend, so they called out every weekend they were scheduled and put themselves on to work their weekends "off." I have seen nurses sit and do their knitting all night long, then begin doing their charting after report, so they could collect OT, all protected by the union. I have seen aides who were fired after it was proved they caused a leg fracture by an unsafe transfer, only to be forced by union grievance to be brought back. I've seen nurses who demanded that a fingerstick blood sugar remain unassessed rather than allow a supervisor to check it, because checking fingersticks was a "union job." Only once was I ever glad that the nurses were unionized, in a situation where a nurse was victimized by a worthless manager.

I resent your proposal that nurses be forced into unions whether they want to join or not. That technically may be a closed or a union shop, but to me it's slavery. Like being forced to join a political party in order to get a job. If you have an administrator who's violating the labor laws, he needs to be reported to the NLRB and the state. A union isn't going to stop him from falsifying records.

I don't understand you.

CatLady, I understand everything you have said.

I have also seen the system give the doubt to some highly questionable people as well. Some of them have files as thick as my thigh, (And that's thick)!

As to merit raises, in union hospitals, there are no such things. We have "steps", which are based on performance and professional excellence, and are only granted after a review by a panel of your peers. This stuff is all highly documented, as is every malfeseance. You are entiltled to raises automatically as granted by the contract.

In my experience, the only way slackers get away with such bad attitude is when people don't bother to document. Only once have I seen a nurse NOT be fired for repeated bad behaviour, and from someone on the inside, it was because the hospital kept focusing on the "wrong stuff"

They had all the evidence in front of them, but brought up all the wrong points at the hearing!

IMHO, having worked at both union and non-union hospitals, I still believe that unions have done us proud, and I would choose one over the other.

Having said that, think carefully about for-profit organizations, unions mean nothing if you don't have ancillary staff for support.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

CatLady, I understand everything you have said.

I have also seen the system give the doubt to some highly questionable people as well. Some of them have files as thick as my thigh, (And that's thick)!

As to merit raises, in union hospitals, there are no such things. We have "steps", which are based on performance and professional excellence, and are only granted after a review by a panel of your peers. This stuff is all highly documented, as is every malfeseance. You are entiltled to raises automatically as granted by the contract.

In my experience, the only way slackers get away with such bad attitude is when people don't bother to document. Only once have I seen a nurse NOT be fired for repeated bad behaviour, and from someone on the inside, it was because the hospital kept focusing on the "wrong stuff"

They had all the evidence in front of them, but brought up all the wrong points at the hearing!

IMHO, having worked at both union and non-union hospitals, I still believe that unions have done us proud, and I would choose one over the other.

Having said that, think carefully about for-profit organizations, unions mean nothing if you don't have ancillary staff for support.

Unions have their place but that's not EVERYPLACE.

I don't begrudge you your union membership; just don't begrudge me my option to NOT be in a union.

I take your point about for-profits. I recently left a 'for-profit' place because I had severe differences of opinion with management. The proverbial straw was the implementation of an infra-red tracking system to time how fast nurses answer call bells. I'm not a dog, and I don't need a tracking collar, thank you very much.

Now, I've gone back to a previous employer that is not-for-profit and I'm very happy about my situation. I am paid well, I have good ratios (2:1 in critical care) and I believe that management is as responsive as management can be. I don't feel a union would add to the mix.

I see unions as a situational need. Some places DO need unions. Some places I wouldn't work in WITHOUT a union. But then, these days, I probably wouldn't work at those places in any case.

I am, to quote a recent AACN slogan, 'living my contribution'. I know my worth, I respect it, and I look at my job as what I bring to THEM; not the other way around.

My confidence in my ability and worth is based upon a fair amount of experience and education. I can see how somebody new in the trenches could feel intimidated and be abused in re: incidental overtime. In fact, I not only empathize; I've walked in those shoes.

I strongly believe that all nursing schools should do some intensive assertiveness training. For example, I'm not afraid to answer my phone on my days off because I'm not afraid to say, "No, thank you." when asked to work yet another OT shift. I DO work OT, but I do so by choice.

~faith,

Timothy.

[mlnrs1]

Besides, political discussions are why we have premium forums on this site. Sign up for a premium account, and I'll gladly talk politics w/ you until we are both blue in the face.

~faith,

Timothy.

**

1. Talking about politics should always be free (and whaddaya know... it is, look at me).

2. I will talk about politics anywhere, anytime I want to or feel that I should. Every American should do the same.

Politics, like wages, shouldn't be something "you just don't talk about because it's not polite." Both should be discussed/debated openly. If we talked about politics more often, maybe we would not be so chronically un-informed (or in your case, mis-informed) as a citezenry.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

]Nurses Speak Out

That's a different topic and there is a thread for it.

https://allnurses.com/forums/f100/charge-nurses-management-supervisors-168299.html

I've actually DISCUSSED it in the right thread.

~faith,

Timothy.

[mlnrs1]

You've made several attempts to politicize this discussion, despite being told that it's off-topic here--I am not a moderator, but I know this--and hurled insults at anyone who doesn't toe your line.

Did I mention my undergrad degree is in political science?? And that I registered as a Democrat from 1976 until 1992, when I went independent?

...you should review the history of the fascists and look for the similarities.

**

Every point I have made (every single word) is COMPLETELY relevant to this topic. This thread is about whether or not companies try to screw employees out of overtime pay.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, this is done where I work, but has not yet affected me personally, as I have never had to stay late. Tonight it almost happened. Tonight was hellish, one of those nights, and I got behind to the point that I had about 45 minutes to go before my schduled end-time and it looked like I was not going to finish.

I am afraid for that to happen because when my administrator goes into the payroll system and deletes that 15 minutes, and I get the check and see it... I am going to protest vehemently, file official complaints with the labor board, write letters to the CNA, the AFL-CIO, My Senators + Congressmen, Al Gore, the ACLU, the NBA, the OPP and the current King of Siam. I am going to fight without regard to whether I can keep my job.

This weighs heavy on me because I love my job. I am very happy where I work and I plan to stay there for a long time (maybe retire from there). If it happens to me though, I will have no choice. I would not be able to allow myself to be exploited/intimidated into being a slave, even if it's just for 15 minutes. I would not be able to live with myself.

I am into this thread because it is relevant to my career, right at this minute. I am discussing this topic because has a lot to do with what I am going through.

You make me sound like somebody just trolling different threads and spewing unrelated political propaganda for the sake of spewing unrelated political propaganda. That is not the case.

To say that this topic has nothing to do with politics is absurd. It has everything to do with politics. I have not said a single word that is off-topic.

I don't "hurl insults" at anyone. I make valid points that a lot of people agree with. I banter back and forth with some who don't.

Moderators looking at what I say maybe see that I am teetering on a line, but they also see that I am making good points, and that I truly have something to say. That's why they aren't deleting me.

**

God, I can't believe I just had to defend my right to speak on a public forum! A public forum for nurses!

I'm a nurse. My opinions have as much place here as anyone elses.

Who's the fascist?

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, this is done where I work, but has not yet affected me personally, as I have never had to stay late. Tonight it almost happened. Tonight was hellish, one of those nights, and I got behind to the point that I had about 45 minutes to go before my schduled end-time and it looked like I was not going to finish.

I am afraid for that to happen because when my administrator goes into the payroll system and deletes that 15 minutes, and I get the check and see it... I am going to protest vehemently, file official complaints with the labor board, write letters to the CNA, the AFL-CIO, My Senators + Congressmen, Al Gore, the ACLU, the NBA, the OPP and the current King of Siam. I am going to fight without regard to whether I can keep my job.

Ok, I'll bite. What have you done to change the policies of your employer? Have you discussed it with anyone? You say you are in a union job - you can't discuss it with your union reps? Why do they allow it?

It's not a problem until it affects you? You condone the behavior by not objecting when it happens to your co-workers. Yes? Isn't that the concept of unions? To stand up collectively and not just when it affects you personally?

One of my points in this discussion is that not paying for incidental overtime happens only because we are intimidated to not speak out.

Let me ask you this: do you work harder and stress out in order to AVOID the confrontation that incidental overtime would create? In effect, doesn't that kowtow to 'the man'? Isn't that the whole point of the policy? To hurry you to avoid incidental overtime? Aren't you being intimidated to AVOID incidental overtime, as intended?

~faith,

Timothy.

[VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN]

moderator's note: this thread is heating up and i would hate to see it closed. much valuable information has been shared, and there is still room for more commentary. please refrain from personal attacks, condescending statements, "polarizing" political remarks such as "all republicans/ democrats stink," etc. it is ok to discuss politics in a civil way if relevant to the op's topic. if you are offended by a post, don't respond, but use the red triangle "report" feature. please take the time now to review the terms of service. thank you.

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

from 2004: update: fight for rns right to overtime pay

new overtime law - nonexemptions

dol whd: fact sheet #23: overtime pay requirements of the flsa

to research your state's overtime law rules and regulations to see if they differ from those of the federal flsa, start with the resources listed in [color=#236eb5]state labor law and employment law

[nyforlove]

thanks karen; that looks like it'll be a good resource for those w/concerns re: a particular state's laws. i hope we can continue this thread because, as i noted earlier, one of the things i find so invaluable about this site is the ability to discuss informally with colleagues what is "really" taking place in the hospitals/non-profits/other work settings. i started this thread and suggested that perhaps unions can play a role in this issue and i am pleased with the several perceptive comments posted, but i hope we can continue with a good faith effort to encourage a vigorous debate while avoiding an "us-them" stand-off that likely won't get anyone anywhere (except for ulcers); (also wanted to express personally the sadness re: timothy's marriage having been hurt by the unfair ot practices of a prior employer, but glad that one employer did not drive you from the profession).

from 2004: update: fight for rns right to overtime pay

new overtime law - nonexemptions

dol whd: fact sheet #23: overtime pay requirements of the flsa

to research your state's overtime law rules and regulations to see if they differ from those of the federal flsa, start with the resources listed in [color=#236eb5]state labor law and employment law

[Chris27229, LPN]

The last hospital that I worked at about 8 yrears ago was not paying nurses any overtime unless the manager approved the over time. Some one reported the hospital to the labor board. The labor board came to the hopital and actually interviewed nurses that were working that day. After this everyone got paid for the actual hours that they worked no mater what.

[rktele]

We're non-union, but we're paid for staying late, which happens often to new grads and experienced RNs alike. Of course, it probably helps that we're a Magnet hospital. I even received the night shift premium when I was there 2 hours late one night. It was a really bad day.

[Flea23]

Home Health RN here-> no OT until over 80 hours in a pay period. Most of us are part time- so NO OT!!!! :angryfire