Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

[nyforlove]

This was being discussed on a specialty forum, but it applies universally to hospital nurses, so here goes:

Getting Paid for End-of-Shift Overtime

If a Nurse needs to stay an extra hour after a 12-hour shift to finish (which is a likely scenario for a fresh grad), does a Union make sure she gets paid for that hour, where non-Union hospitals may take the attitude, "Well, it's your fault you didn't finish, so you're on your own time..." I heard of a "friend of a friend" who routinely puts in extra time at the end of a shift at a large Manhattan hospital, but NEVER gets paid...now, I won't name the hospital, because I've never actually spoken to him and the problem may be that he fails to fill out the necessary paperwork (he's a bit "unorganized"). At one of my clinical sites, the Recruiting Office at a smaller Bklyn hospital said it does NOT pay for end-of-work overtime, because it feels the nurse failed to arrange her time appropriately....What are your thoughts? It's not as if a nurse can leave EARLY if she's completed all her meds and notes...she must stay until the end of the shift and if something happens a minute before the shift ends, she absolutely should be paid to stay and take care of it if needed to do so (even if her replacement nurse has arrived, but needs assistance).

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Oh, Timothy.

Bite your tongue!

The current DEMOCRATIC sponsored bill, just passed by the Congress, calls for the minimum wage to be increased to $7.15/hr.

The Republican members only passed it because they insisted on tying it to a proposal to lower the estate tax, only benefiting the richest 2% in the country.

Otherwise, they would not have voted for ANY increase at all.

As far as the GOP is concerned, you should all be pigs at the trough of HCA, TENET, CHS, and LIKE it.

BAAD research.

I moved my response to this to its own thread.

It was off-topic here.

~faith,

Timothy.

[mlnrs1]

What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

The labor laws about RN and professional status have been around for years. Most employers choose not to put us all on salary because they couldn't get nurses to work OT if that were the case.

I could argue that it's Democrats that cause nurses to not be respected for our efforts because the Democrats group 'classes' to their lowest common denominator. We should all get paid 7.15/hr minimum wage and sing 'kumbaya'.

But, this isn't a political thread, is it?

On topic, my first job when I was staying late to 'learn the ropes' was a gov't nursing job and they gave out 'comp time' that they never allowed you to use. In 1.5 yrs, I think I 'earned' ~700 hrs of comp time and they actually let me use 8. It had to be scheduled based 'on the convenience of the unit'. Unfortunately, there was NEVER a convenient time, and it was 'use it or lose it within 6 months'. And THAT was a job w/ a union contract.

I'm not dissing unions, but I would think that, if you ARE in a union, that the subject of 'incidental overtime' should not only be contracted, it should be contracted fairly. In other words, your union leaders should hold out this issue as one of fairly high concern.

All my other jobs paid the OT, but it was a disciplinary issue to 'abuse' work overage. That was a manager's discretion as to whether it was a legitimate issue of 'learning the ropes' or just mismanagement of time. It wasn't a case of, "You worked 5 min late, you're fired.' but a case of, 'We need to work on a way to get you to get out on time.'

At my current job, we work 7-7, and if you have to stay past 8, you are required to submit to your manager an email explaining the circumstances. 'I just didn't get done in time.' is not an acceptable rationale. I've submitted emails for being past 8 on numerous occassions, "new pt", "code", etc., and I've never heard any grief about my 'incidental overtime' use. But, I can probably count on my hands how many times I stay past 8 in a year.

~faith,

Timothy.

RN ALERT: Stay Informed and Engaged

Nurses Across Nation Take to Streets to Demand Protection of Right to Organize, Advocate for Patients

http://www.calnurses.org/rn-alerts/

Pending Labor Board Decisions Could Imperil RN Protections, Standards, Patient Advocacy Role

The National Labor Relations Board will soon issue a major ruling that could jeopardize the ability of RNs to receive the protections afforded by CNA/NNOC representation. At the request of healthcare employers and anti-union consultants, the Board is expected to make the absurd ruling that many thousands of RNs are "supervisors" under the law because they make clinical patient care assignments to other staff. Under federal labor law, supervisors have no protection. THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO UNION REPRESENTATION.

**

Hmmm, should I believe them (the California Nurses Association), or GWB, Arnold, and Timothy. That's a tough one.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Pending Labor Board Decisions Could Imperil RN Protections, Standards, Patient Advocacy Role . . .

I still don't see how this is related to a thread on 'incidental overtime'.

You are referring to the legal cases about charge nurse as 'manager'. That's another thread, and I have commented on that in THAT thread.

This thread isn't about off-year election politics, nor is it about defining nurse managers.

It's about incidental overtime (as opposed to scheduled overtime.)

~faith,

Timothy.

[steelydanfan]

Timothy,

This thread became about politics the minute you used the term "Democrats" in your post.

Don't start something you can't finish.

[mlnrs1]

I still don't see how this is related to a thread on 'incidental overtime'.

You are referring to the legal cases about charge nurse as 'manager'. That's another thread, and I have commented on that in THAT thread.

This thread isn't about off-year election politics, nor is it about defining nurse managers.

It's about incidental overtime (as opposed to scheduled overtime.)

~faith,

Timothy.

---

It is not about "incidental overtime", it is about workers rights.

The title of the thread is "Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?", it's amazing how quickly you have watered it down to "incidental overtime".

It's like civil war becomes "sectarian violence", domestic spying becomes "terrorist surveilance", and (it goes the other way too), inheritence tax becomes the "death tax".

As to the way you were treated (given "time" that you were never allowed to take), that was wrong. If your union was not crippled by the policies of this adminstration and this Republican controlled congress, you would have gotten the time (or pay) that you rightfully had coming to you.

How every nurse votes this November is ABSOLUTELY relevant to this thread: Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Timothy,

This thread became about politics the minute you used the term "Democrats" in your post.

Don't start something you can't finish.

actually, look at the post RIGHT BEFORE that. The post you refer to was a response.

~faith,

Timothy.

[steelydanfan]

Also, it may be of interest to all of you to know that as a union employee (CNA), if my shift is slated as 0700-15:30; and I clock out at 1545; I am paid at time and 1/2 for those 15 minutes overtime.

It doesn't kick in after a certain percentage, I don't have to explain or justify it to ANYONE. I am trusted that I put in the hours, it gets PAID.

And THATS what a nursing union can do for you.

And in no respect will I EVER be considered as management. There are strict contract guidelines as to what Management positions entail. If I take the role as "charge nurse" for one shift, I get paid a shift differential of $12.00. That does not constitute management status, nor is the regular charge nurse considered management.

Believe me, ANA has been arguing about the definition of a "professional" nurse for the 27 years I have been in practice.

Somehow, I do not believe they will come to a consensus anytime soon.

They have failed on all counts to stand up to all challenges to nursing practice, which is why CNA removed themselves from the charter 4 years ago.

Cate

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

---

It is not about "incidental overtime", it is about workers rights.

The title of the thread is "Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?", it's amazing how quickly you have watered it down to "incidental overtime".

It's like civil war becomes "sectarian violence", domestic spying becomes "terrorist surveilance", and (it goes the other way too), inheritence tax becomes the "death tax".

As to the way you were treated (given "time" that you were never allowed to take), that was wrong. If your union was not crippled by the policies of this adminstration and this Republican controlled congress, you would have gotten the time (or pay) that you rightfully had coming to you.

How every nurse votes this November is ABSOLUTELY relevant to this thread: Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

Except that this issue has been around for a very long time. I first encountered it in 1993, during the Clinton years with a 'democrat controlled congress', working for the gov't in the VA system under a union contract.

It's just not relevant to say that employers play the overtime duck game because Republicans are in office. The political bent is off topic and not related.

Now, I don't mind talking politics and I don't mind finishing what I started, but this site already has threads for the NLRB legal case and I just started one on min wage, another political topic brought up in this thread.

Look, you can paint every issue as 'true believer' politics. My milk isn't cold enough so vote the Republicans out of office! Everything is about everything.

Except.

This thread was not about 'worker's rights'. It was about incidental overtime.

Incidental overtime and being fairly paid is a real issue for nurses. That belongs in this forum. Every thing else belongs on the premium side.

~faith,

Timothy.

[steelydanfan]

Could I expect anything else from someone who quotes Tom Clancy?

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Could I expect anything else from someone who quotes Tom Clancy?

Actually read the quote. There's a fair amount of irony there that runs AGAINST my normal political grain.

But now, I'm am going to return to discussing only incidental overtime in THIS thread. I'd be happy to talk with you more about the other issues in the threads that are on point to those issues.

~faith,

Timothy.

[steelydanfan]

Timothy,

YOU are the one who first brought politics into this discussion!

You keep saying that this is not political, yet you are the only one who keeps raising it! Don't shy from your own words!

No one has ever raised the point about overtime being a political problem except YOU!

And if you don't think that workers rights and MANDATORY (not incidental) overtime pay are not connected; you need to revisit your civics class.

OBTW, the problems you had with your government VA job were most likely not the fault of President Clinton. In 1993, the policies you were constrained to had likely been in place since...oh, 1985. Bush years, I believe.

The curse of a government job, change takes place so slowly......

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

I will say that part of the incidental overtime problem today is a direct result of the 'restructuring' of nursing over the years.

Flexing up and down to keep a steady state of staff to pts that is somewhere just shy of panic level activity for staff to keep up might be good for the bottom line, but it's horrible for nurses.

Hence, the 'shortage' which really isn't a shortage but a significant percentage of nurses no longer working as a nurses.

To my mind's eye, a certain level of incidental overtime is a modest and reasonable price to pay for the 'right-staffing' flexing up and down that really isn't 'right' at all.

To put the screws to incidental overtime as well is pure hubris.

But I know that managers are encouraged to tow a hard line on the issue of incidental overtime. Staffing grids and FTE/ratios can be blown out of the water by just a few employees staying a few hours late each day. Those grids are often a manager's primary 'report card'.

And given enough pressure, combined w/ already feeling not 'up to par' because you are new, is enough to silence most new nurses. Unfortunately, by the time you grow as a nurse to the point that you CAN stand up and voice your contribution, you have also grown up enough as a nurse to control your own use of incidental overtime.

This 'shortage' is going to entail more and newer nurses in the 'mix'. That being the case, it's short-sided, if you ask me, to attempt to penalize those nurses for 'learning the ropes'.

That being said, I would encourage new nurses to NOT chart 'at the end of the shift'. Chart as you go. Once learned, this makes your shift easier. It IS working smarter not harder. Humans work better by taking the time to frequently re-evaluate our situations. A few minutes charting each hour does that for you. I know, I know, you have 12 things to do now. But, if you carve out 10 minutes/hr as 'sacred' to charting, the ability to 'recharge and re-evaluate' your situation can shave minutes off your decision making.

Simply put, you work better acting instead of reacting. A few minutes each hours to put thing in perspective will not only help your charting, but your time management. And THAT will cut down on your incidental overtime. I mean, let's face it, it's one thing to say that we SHOULD be paid for incidental overtime: and we should. It's another thing to say we want to actually be there.

To me, those 2 extra hours each night my first year of nursing almost drove me out of nursing. And they certainly contributed to the demise of my marriage. Having to stay to finish wasn't worth time an half (or any other amount) to me. The fact that they didn't even pay THAT was merely insult to injury.

~faith,

Timothy.