Getting Paid $$ for End-of-Shift Overtime?

[nyforlove]

This was being discussed on a specialty forum, but it applies universally to hospital nurses, so here goes:

Getting Paid for End-of-Shift Overtime

If a Nurse needs to stay an extra hour after a 12-hour shift to finish (which is a likely scenario for a fresh grad), does a Union make sure she gets paid for that hour, where non-Union hospitals may take the attitude, "Well, it's your fault you didn't finish, so you're on your own time..." I heard of a "friend of a friend" who routinely puts in extra time at the end of a shift at a large Manhattan hospital, but NEVER gets paid...now, I won't name the hospital, because I've never actually spoken to him and the problem may be that he fails to fill out the necessary paperwork (he's a bit "unorganized"). At one of my clinical sites, the Recruiting Office at a smaller Bklyn hospital said it does NOT pay for end-of-work overtime, because it feels the nurse failed to arrange her time appropriately....What are your thoughts? It's not as if a nurse can leave EARLY if she's completed all her meds and notes...she must stay until the end of the shift and if something happens a minute before the shift ends, she absolutely should be paid to stay and take care of it if needed to do so (even if her replacement nurse has arrived, but needs assistance).

[catlady, BSN, RN]

Two issues here:

1) Whether state law requires payment of overtime. (As I stated earlier, altho' I'm a lawyer, I'm not a specialist in employment law, but am fairly certain that federal law doesn't require OT for nurses, because nurses are considered "professionals"--and therefore "exempt" from overtime provisions.)

From http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3940/is_199905/ai_n8852239 :

Where registered nurses work for FLSA-covered employers on an hourly basis, they are considered to be nonexempt under the law. There are entitled to the federal minimum wage (currently $5.15/hour), and timer and one half their regular rate of pay for each overtime hour they work. These FLSA requirements cannot be contractually waived, and an accurate record of all their hours of work must be kept.

Where registered nurses are paid on guaranteed salary (or fee) basis to work in their profession, they are exempt from FLSA's minimum wage and overtime rules. Their salary covers all their work hours and minimum wage and overtime pay are not required. The burden of proving the applicability of this exemption, however, rests with the employer.

FLSA-covered employers are generally required to pay nonexempt employees overtime after 40 hours of work in a 7-day work week (that is, 168 consecutive hours). Many nonexempt nurses in health care industries are paid under these rules.

[RGN1]

Where I work you can either choose to be paid for any overtime or record it as "time owed" which you can take back at your convenience. Some nurses let their overtime build up to get whole shifts off - like extra annual leave. I think if your hospital won't pay, or pressures you not to claim payment, then you should log all your extra hours & minutes & then request the time off when you need it. They can't possibly say no to that because it's your time!!

[nyforlove]

From http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3940/is_199905/ai_n8852239 :

Where registered nurses work for FLSA-covered employers on an hourly basis, they are considered to be nonexempt under the law. There are entitled to the federal minimum wage (currently $5.15/hour), and timer and one half their regular rate of pay for each overtime hour they work. These FLSA requirements cannot be contractually waived, and an accurate record of all their hours of work must be kept.

Where registered nurses are paid on guaranteed salary (or fee) basis to work in their profession, they are exempt from FLSA's minimum wage and overtime rules. Their salary covers all their work hours and minimum wage and overtime pay are not required. The burden of proving the applicability of this exemption, however, rests with the employer.

FLSA-covered employers are generally required to pay nonexempt employees overtime after 40 hours of work in a 7-day work week (that is, 168 consecutive hours). Many nonexempt nurses in health care industries are paid under these rules.

Thanks for the info!

[LydiaNN]

Hospitals know that they have to account for newer nurses taking longer to do everything, so that's not a rationale for not paying them overtime to finish their end of shift details. By the same token, they also have to continue pay nurses who aren't new but for whatever reason just aren't that efficient overall. And certainly the nurse who is efficient but was just given too much to do shouldn't be penalized by having to finish their unrealistic workload without proper compensation. Hospitals are legally obliged to respect the labor laws and pay their employees, whatever the circumstances are that led to the OT. If they feel that their employee isn't making good use of their time, they can use other avenues to address that- retraining, write ups, termination, whatever...

[perfectbluebuildings, BSN, RN]

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[mlnrs1]

We have a time clock so, we clock in when we get there and out when we leave and no matter what time that clock out is, we get paid for the time we were there. If we are there over an hour late though, they add another 1/2hr meal break in that gets cut along with the usual one (yeah... if I am staying over an hour late, I CERTAINLY took 2 meal breaks... sure!! MAYBE 1 10-minute one...) But at least we do get paid for that time, no questions asked.

We have a time clock too, but I have heard that each pay period our administrator goes into the system and manually removes any time over the scheduled shifts (he is required to sign off on them all before they go to payroll). How they get away with this is by requiring ALL overtime to be pre-approved - hence, if you got too busy or had an emergency and had to stay over (maybe just because you have spent the most time with the patient who had the emergency, know the patient best, and because you care), you are not paid for that time because it was not approved in advance.

I work at a privately owned UHS facility in California. As far as I know, California has some pretty liberal labor laws - I can't imagine that this is legal. I know we (nurses) are all paid hourly and classified as non-exempt employees.

I haven't worked there long and have not had to stay over yet, but if it ever happens to me I will protest vehemently, file complaints with the state labor board, and see how it plays out. I love my job, but I will give it up before I allow myself to be intimidated into working for free.

This administrator that shaves those :15 minutes here, :30 minutes there... why do you think he does it - for HIS fat bonus at the end of the year. If the company gives him even 5% of what he helps them steal from the rest of us... I'm sure it adds up. So he gets a nice bonus, the corp saves a pile of money... and it's all on MY back??? I work for free???? Nope. Not this guy. Not in this lifetime.

The only way employers get away with this stuff is by people not speaking up/fighting back.

[mlnrs1]

This is from the CA Division of Labor Standards Enforcement site:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Overtime.htm

Q.If an employee works unauthorized overtime is the employer obligated to pay for it?

A.

Yes, California law requires that employers pay overtime, whether authorized or not, at the rate of one and one-half times the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of eight up to an including 12 hours in any workday, and for the first eight hours of work on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek, and double the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 12 in any workday and for all hours worked in excess of eight on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek.

An employer can discipline an employee if he or she violates the employer’s policy of working overtime without the required authorization. However, California's wage and hour laws require that the employee be compensated for any hours he or she is "suffered or permitted to work, whether or not required to do so." California case law holds that "suffer or permit" means work the employer knew or should have known about. Thus, an employee cannot deliberately prevent the employer from obtaining knowledge of the unauthorized overtime worked, and come back later to claim recovery. The employer must have the opportunity to obey the law.

---

Can the attorney here give any insight into:

-how "suffer or permit" applies to overtime situations nurses commonly find themselves in?

-doesn't this all fall more under state law than federal - states have HUGE differencces w/ regard to labor law.

Nurses have legal obligations/responsibilities to our state licensing boards: prohibitions against pt. abandonment or incomplete documentation, etc. These supercede obligations/responsibilities we have to our employer. Any nurse will tell you: "my license is more important than any one job." This doesn't even take into account the party with whom our most primary above-all-others obligations/responsibilities lie, our patients.

For those not keeping up, that places the facility you work at 3rd. Priority one, priority two, then them.

This creates a huge conflict: if the license I was hired because of requires me to stay, but my company says I can't (or that I won't get paid if I do), what's the prevailing rule? It's not like I am a factory worker who can just throw my hands up and say: "if you aren't going to pay me, I'm leaving!"

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

All I can add is, this November, oust your nearest Republican from office.

Conditions where you work will improve, for you and your patients.

What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

The labor laws about RN and professional status have been around for years. Most employers choose not to put us all on salary because they couldn't get nurses to work OT if that were the case.

I could argue that it's Democrats that cause nurses to not be respected for our efforts because the Democrats group 'classes' to their lowest common denominator. We should all get paid 7.15/hr minimum wage and sing 'kumbaya'.

But, this isn't a political thread, is it?

On topic, my first job when I was staying late to 'learn the ropes' was a gov't nursing job and they gave out 'comp time' that they never allowed you to use. In 1.5 yrs, I think I 'earned' ~700 hrs of comp time and they actually let me use 8. It had to be scheduled based 'on the convenience of the unit'. Unfortunately, there was NEVER a convenient time, and it was 'use it or lose it within 6 months'. And THAT was a job w/ a union contract.

I'm not dissing unions, but I would think that, if you ARE in a union, that the subject of 'incidental overtime' should not only be contracted, it should be contracted fairly. In other words, your union leaders should hold out this issue as one of fairly high concern.

All my other jobs paid the OT, but it was a disciplinary issue to 'abuse' work overage. That was a manager's discretion as to whether it was a legitimate issue of 'learning the ropes' or just mismanagement of time. It wasn't a case of, "You worked 5 min late, you're fired.' but a case of, 'We need to work on a way to get you to get out on time.'

At my current job, we work 7-7, and if you have to stay past 8, you are required to submit to your manager an email explaining the circumstances. 'I just didn't get done in time.' is not an acceptable rationale. I've submitted emails for being past 8 on numerous occassions, "new pt", "code", etc., and I've never heard any grief about my 'incidental overtime' use. But, I can probably count on my hands how many times I stay past 8 in a year.

~faith,

Timothy.

[steelydanfan]

The only solution to working overtime is to INSIST on being paid for it; only then does the hospital run the numbers and decide that perhaps hiring more nurses MIGHT be a good idea to lower the salary percentages. And believe me, if you work overtime without compensation, you will NOT be recognized for it, you will simply be seen as a "chump" who can be, and will be; taken for granted.

I don't know all the state regulations, but as of 7/29, in California, no nurse is classified as" professional" unless she is deemed to be "management" and thus exempt from overtime. And this only applies to union hospitals who have such clauses written into thier contracts.

And quite frankly,since the arguments about whether or not nurses are seen as PROFESSIONAL is such a current hot topic, I can't see such a defense as holding up in ANY state

[nursecher]

I heard of this happening at a hospital, and I guess the nurses turned them in and they all received checks in the mail. Now they get paid for EVERY minute.

[steelydanfan]

Oh, Timothy.

Bite your tongue!

The current DEMOCRATIC sponsored bill, just passed by the Congress, calls for the minimum wage to be increased to $7.15/hr.

The Republican members only passed it because they insisted on tying it to a proposal to lower the estate tax, only benefiting the richest 2% in the country.

Otherwise, they would not have voted for ANY increase at all.

As far as the GOP is concerned, you should all be pigs at the trough of HCA, TENET, CHS, and LIKE it.

BAAD research.

[Gabie Baby]

You can organize your work only so much. Sometimes there is simply more to do than at other times. Sometimes the work can simply not be fitted into one's scheduled hours.

It just infuriates me when Management, in their suits, with their secretaries to step and fetch their coffee and their lunch and their dry cleaning, and arrange their meetings, and type their correspondence, and otherwise wait on them like concubines, is going to tell a frontline worker, doing battle every shift, never getting so much as a pee break, let alone a lunch or time to sit down and chart until the relief nurse comes in and then getting bitched at by that one for having left something undone, how to do her job in a more organized fashion.

I'm all for organization but fair is fair. The bosses have nurses enslaved, the bosses are growing fat and rich while the worker bees do all the hard labor and are afraid to claim their well-deserved, earned full pay. The more I hear this, the madder I get. I really need to get out of this rotten line of work. I'm tired of being taken advantage of.