I am trying to feel out if anyone else has declined the Covid vaccine and feeling backlash or tension with other co-workers? I have never heard so much discussion regarding nurse receiving or declining a vaccine in the 12 years I've been a nurse. Not sure why it should even matter but, I am getting a lot of pressure about it. I do not see why I am "crazy " if I made the decision against receiving the vaccine. I also do not understand co-workers pushing the vaccine on me and others, or insisting we are out of our minds. This is coming from management level as well as staff nurses. I am just appalled at the treatment and many of us who have declined the vaccine have kept to ourselves. For me, personally, I made the choice not to get it and I was done at that. It's been a month into our hospital vaccines and people will not just shut up about it.
I got vaccinated. My second dose made me sick as hell. Fever, chills, palpitations, shortness of breath, body aches, nausea and passive suicidal ideation. Both my body and mind were not okay. I didn't eat all day and took tiny sips of warm water. The next day I felt completely better and was proud of myself for protecting my patients.
But for this reason I feel like it's wrong to bully someone for not wanting the vaccine.
I beg to disagree! Ignorance is the cause of a lot of trouble. If you understand that a single person is all that's required to create a mutated strain which could possibly be worse than what's here now, then you understand why we all need to be vaccinated.
This isn't a virus that responds to social etiquette like hurt feelings. It should be mandatory to take the vaccine for the protection of all of us.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
1 minute ago, Curious1997 said:
I beg to disagree! Ignorance is the cause of a lot of trouble. If you understand that a single person is all that's required to create a mutated strain which could possibly be worse than what's here now, then you understand why we all need to be vaccinated.
This isn't a virus that responds to social etiquette like hurt feelings. It should be mandatory to take the vaccine for the protection of all of us.
What do you disagree with? My personal decision not to bully people who choose to decline vaccination?
What do you disagree with? My personal decision not to bully people who choose to decline vaccination?
I think that's odd.
Let us use our imagination here. You don't take the vaccine and very possibly you will contract covid but you are asymptomatic. You go to the grocery store and unknown to you, infect others. A pregnant woman gets ill and dies taking her baby with her. Her children at home are now motherless and the husband is heartbroken and begins drinking, neglecting his parenting.
This is one of the hundreds of scenarios that can occur from people you infected in the supermarket. If there are many like you, then thousands of other scenarios occur and almost none will be a happy ending.
You want to live in society and enjoy the benefits of that society, but you won't protect that society because your 'rights' are being trampled on.
That's what antivaxxers do! They kill their own children sometimes, because of their decisions through ignorance. I have very little sympathy for ignorant people except those that have deficits, through no fault of their own.
I choose to bully people when it's for their own good and for others. I work in Psych and sometimes, just like in REAL LIFE, you have to face the truth! And sometimes bullying through medical interventions, drives that message home.
Anyone who doesn't understand the 500k plus deaths in the last year and the expanding circle of all the people around the deceased and the personal implications to their immediate family, I don't know what to say.
I'm going to say something; maybe not popular but I can handle being disagreed with.
The issue mentioned in the OP does tick me off, even though most of the comments I have heard here and IRL from those deciding not to get the vaccine don't make sense to me.
I'm curious: Other than soothing my own emotions, how exactly would I benefit from mocking and harassing a coworker in the manner described in the OP? How will my immune-compromised loved one benefit from me behaving that way? How is society going to benefit? Isn't it possible to reject the behavior described in the OP and not make any excuses for it, while still believing in science and choosing to be vaccinated and encouraging others to do so? Is that really so difficult?
The isolating, the marking, the calling out, the disparaging, the mockery....none of that is appropriate. It just isn't. The treatment of the OP is not even associated with stated views of the OP; it is based on not having immediately lined up and done something.
It is foolish and in my opinion completely compromises any message people hope to send when they are okay with henpecking their peers yet there they still are, working in the same place that was downright giddy about plans to have community groups to sew fabric masks back in Spring because it had completely abdicated its responsibility to be remotely prepared for one bad week, let alone a pandemic. The full-on plan was to use masks sewn from fabric on special at the local discount craft store instead of N-95s. Shenanigans like that and many, many others have likely killed people and have definitely directly victimized untold numbers of healthcare workers. Let's have some balance here. (And when I say "here" I mean in our general thought processes and our decisions to get really pissed off about something or not).
[The badge-marking by employers is particularly egregious given their own part in this mess. Doesn't that bother anyone else??? If not, why? WHY!! I am really struggling to understand. It's a blatant "rules for thee but not for me" sort of move. I think they should go on the news and tell the public about their own company's part in absolutely screwing everyone, **then** feel free to mark employee badges to their heart's content. ?]
People get emotional secondary gain from bullying others; it makes us feel good to knock people to the ground if they aren't going to quickly come around and share our view. Otherwise, wouldn't it be beautiful if people unemotionally, neutrally....just did what they believed to be correct and shared an unemotional fact-based message they believed to be correct every time they were called upon (or had the opportunity) to comment? Every time a conspiracy theory is discussed, just rebut it with neutral emotion and move on? Am I the only one who thinks that would be a far, far more convincing way to behave than to get in silly mud-slinging arguments and display shameful behaviors?
What's up with neutral behavior (or at least some semblance of balance) and humility--no perceived value in it? It isn't as emotionally satisfying?
I'm going to say something; maybe not popular but I can handle being disagreed with.
The issue mentioned in the OP does tick me off, even though most of the comments I have heard here and IRL from those deciding not to get the vaccine don't make sense to me.
I'm curious: Other than soothing my own emotions, how exactly would I benefit from mocking and harassing a coworker in the manner described in the OP? How will my immune-compromised loved one benefit from me behaving that way? How is society going to benefit? Isn't it possible to reject the behavior described in the OP and not make any excuses for it, while still believing in science and choosing to be vaccinated and encouraging others to do so? Is that really so difficult?
The isolating, the marking, the calling out, the disparaging, the mockery....none of that is appropriate. It just isn't. The treatment of the OP is not even associated with stated views of the OP; it is based on not having immediately lined up and done something.
It is foolish and in my opinion completely compromises any message people hope to send when they are okay with henpecking their peers yet there they still are, working in the same place that was downright giddy about plans to have community groups to sew fabric masks back in Spring because it had completely abdicated its responsibility to be remotely prepared for one bad week, let alone a pandemic. The full-on plan was to use masks sewn from fabric on special at the local discount craft store instead of N-95s. Shenanigans like that and many, many others have likely killed people and have definitely directly victimized untold numbers of healthcare workers. Let's have some balance here. (And when I say "here" I mean in our general thought processes and our decisions to get really pissed off about something or not).
[The badge-marking by employers is particularly egregious given their own part in this mess. Doesn't that bother anyone else??? If not, why? WHY!! I am really struggling to understand. It's a blatant "rules for thee but not for me" sort of move. I think they should go on the news and tell the public about their own company's part in absolutely screwing everyone, **then** feel free to mark employee badges to their heart's content. ?]
People get emotional secondary gain from bullying others; it makes us feel good to knock people to the ground if they aren't going to quickly come around and share our view. Otherwise, wouldn't it be beautiful if people unemotionally, neutrally....just did what they believed to be correct and shared an unemotional fact-based message they believed to be correct every time they were called upon (or had the opportunity) to comment? Every time a conspiracy theory is discussed, just rebut it with neutral emotion and move on? Am I the only one who thinks that would be a far, far more convincing way to behave than to get in silly mud-slinging arguments and display shameful behaviors?
What's up with neutral behavior (or at least some semblance of balance) and humility--no perceived value in it? It isn't as emotionally satisfying?
Covid is dangerous. It kills!
Do you get in a car with a drunk driver with your family? Or do you take the keys away and not allow him to drive? Not only can he hurt someone, but also other innocent victims! There might only be a few people killed. Isn't that taking prudent steps to protect yourself and family and possibly others?
Covid, if you infect one, who can infect two, four, sixteen etc etc. What's the difference between the drunk driver and the infected covid person, except the many more people who will be endangered?
Knowledge isn't Osmotic. Ignorant people harm themselves and others all the time and I think you lose your rights when you endanger others. Why is your rights to not be vaccinated more important than the collective rights of others who you endanger?
In every community there are rules to ensure peace and safety of that community. If you endanger the community, you are penalized. You made the choice to live there! If you are unable to follow the rules, move out!
Do you get in a car with a drunk driver with your family? Or do you take the keys away and not allow him to drive? Not only can he hurt someone, but also other innocent victims! There might only be a few people killed. Isn't that taking prudent steps to protect yourself and family and possibly others?
Covid, if you infect one, who can infect two, four, sixteen etc etc. What's the difference between the drunk driver and the infected covid person, except the many more people who will be endangered?
Knowledge isn't Osmotic. Ignorant people harm themselves and others all the time and I think you lose your rights when you endanger others. Why is your rights to not be vaccinated more important than the collective rights of others who you endanger?
In every community there are rules to ensure peace and safety of that community. If you endanger the community, you are penalized. You made the choice to live there! If you are unable to follow the rules, move out!
Specializes in Educator, COVID Paperwork Expert (self-taught).
I'm an Infection Control Nurse in Long-Term care. One of our most important resident rights is the resident's right to choose. A resident can choose to refuse to take meds, refuse to eat, refuse to go to dialysis. We educate, document...and ultimately, allow them to make their choice, whether or not it will hurt them, whether or not it could potentially hurt those around them (an overweight resident who chooses to continue to make poor food choices is a potential danger to me and to all the people who work with him/her; a resident who chooses to not call for help when he/she transfers is a potential danger to me if I try to assist when I walk in and try to assist, and so on).
The same should be said of nurses' choice to take the vaccine. I have educated myself thoroughly on the vaccine, using the NIH, CDC, and the websites and research pages and drug inserts for the companies producing the vaccinations. I have made my decision based on my research, what we are doing right now to protect our residents, the changes that will come about from taking the vaccine (which are ABSOLUTELY NONE at this point), and potential long-term effects. Thankfully, at my facility, the nurses and staff have been respectful and supportive of all staff and residents, regardless of whether or not they got the vaccine.
And think about this--many nurses make life choices that potentially harm residents/patients. Nurses who smoke carry in the smell of smoking, usually take more frequent breaks than other nurses, and statistically get sick more often. This affects patients and other staff members too. Nurses who are overweight can be slower to respond to an emergency. Lazy, uncaring, careless nurses are a danger to patients/residents. I don't see those nurses bullied--and they shouldn't be! They are well aware of the potential consequences of their life choices, as are nurses who choose to take or not take the vaccine.
I am angered, saddened, and discouraged by the bullying, name calling, and mocking of nurses and health-care-workers who have chosen not to take the vaccine. We are supposed to be working together to fight this pandemic, and there are a lot of issues that, in my opinion, are just as important as the vaccine--right now, in my facility, that is that our residents have not seen loved ones in person for almost a year, and our residents are depressed, losing weight, falling, and dying alone. Families are allowed to come in when residents are actively dying, or have already died...but until last week, not to see residents who are relatively healthy and very, very lonely. These days, weeks, and months of lost time together cannot be gotten back.
Our management staff members spend untold hours on (what I see as mostly)unnecessary testing, reports, keeping up with regulations that, for awhile, were changing daily or more often, more paperwork, more regulations, more reporting, more recordkeeping, filling in for staff members who are quarantined for having contact with someone who might have COVID,... There are so many things "wrong" with the way things are being handled--things that are NOT helping residents. We need to work together to change those things.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
8 hours ago, Curious1997 said:
Let us use our imagination here. You don't take the vaccine and very possibly you will contract covid but you are asymptomatic. You go to the grocery store and unknown to you, infect others. A pregnant woman gets ill and dies taking her baby with her. Her children at home are now motherless and the husband is heartbroken and begins drinking, neglecting his parenting.
This is one of the hundreds of scenarios that can occur from people you infected in the supermarket. If there are many like you, then thousands of other scenarios occur and almost none will be a happy ending.
You want to live in society and enjoy the benefits of that society, but you won't protect that society because your 'rights' are being trampled on.
That's what antivaxxers do! They kill their own children sometimes, because of their decisions through ignorance. I have very little sympathy for ignorant people except those that have deficits, through no fault of their own.
I choose to bully people when it's for their own good and for others. I work in Psych and sometimes, just like in REAL LIFE, you have to face the truth! And sometimes bullying through medical interventions, drives that message home.
Anyone who doesn't understand the 500k plus deaths in the last year and the expanding circle of all the people around the deceased and the personal implications to their immediate family, I don't know what to say.
When we want someone to make a good decision, we educate. It's a basic tenet of nursing.
The person might still make a bad decision.
But if we educate-- a process that includes respect for the person's autonomy, and a way to identify and deal with barriers to learning-- we have done our duty and the best we can do.
You said "I choose to bully."
Bullying is never appropriate. In Healthcare bullying is egregious.
It also doesn't work.
What actually works?
Sometimes nothing will work. Often nothing works. But when something does work, you have earned the respect of another person.
I think about the times people have influenced me to change my mind about something. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens. Every time, the person treated me with respect, heard me out, and then taught me something.
Example on this site:
There was a discussion on the morality of taking a strike job. My position on the matter was flipped after hearing about how an actual strike went down. The poster didn't attack me and was not emotional, but simply educated me on the facts of what happened.
I've job hopped around quite a bit this year due to covid, but my real job is community psych ACT team. I'd say more than half of my job is trying to get patients to take their meds. It's always education, support, respect that works. A lot of education is proving to your patient (student) that you care about their welfare. If you bully, threaten, chastise, you ruin it.
I think it's OK to educate others on risks vs benefits of the vax (or any other subject) if asked. It's not OK to bully others, for any reason at all, EVER!
We can go back and forth all day.
I have yet to see one peer reviewed study or statistic that shows the vaccine is effective at preventing infection or transmission posted in this thread.
I responded with a link to your earlier post stating the same. It was a recent study from Israel, where a majority of the populations has already been vaccinated. For your convenience, I'll post the link again.
Money quote: "Taken together, our findings indicate vaccination is not only important for individual’s protection but can reduce transmission."
Yes, it's preliminary, and no, it has not been peer reviewed. Peer reviews take months and we don't have certain luxuries in perilous times. So we can do our own peer review.
If you're hanging your argument against vaccination on the supposition that the vaccine does not reduce transmission, you're blowing into the wind.
First week in December, I got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine/placebo through a Stage 3 study at Brigham and Women's. Two weeks later I got the first Pfizer shot at work (much earlier than I expected). I told the study staff what I did, they flopped around for a bit, then did an "emergency" unmasking and told me I received the actual vaccine, not the placebo. My assumption is that they did the for liability reasons, so I could make an informed decision before deciding to take the second Pfizer shot.
To repeat another data point: J&J, no reaction. Pfizer 1, significant reaction, but no worse than flu symptoms, and very short-lived (less than a full day). Pfizer 2, no reaction.
I have not heard any disparaging remarks at work, regarding the decision to vaccinate or not. This might be because I got vaccinated, but I have heard several colleagues discuss their non-vaccination quite openly with no backlash. What I'm hearing is more that people are waiting rather than refusing. To me, that is a big distinction.
My colleagues who had COVID are reporting more severe side effects from the vaccine, and I know at least two colleagues who recently had COVID are waiting because of that. They do plan to be vaccinated, but not immediately after recovery. I've also heard some people who have preexisting conditions and are waiting for more information on how the vaccine itself might affect them. One person with Lupus said she knows she might have it bad if she gets COVID, but there's still the possibility she won't get it, but if she gets the vaccine and has long-term autoimmune effects, then it's 100% that she did that to herself. That's probably not the choice I'd make if I were in her position, but I can respect it. Two other nurses I spoke to on Friday were waiting for Johnson and Johnson vaccine because they feel more comfortable with its more traditional viral vector rather than mRNA delivery in Pfizer and Moderna.
Overall, I think the issue of refusal and herd immunity is a premature discussion right now. At this point, we have way more people clamoring for the vaccine than we have doses available. If someone who is eligible now chooses to wait, that dose will go to someone else who wants it, bringing us all the same step closer to herd immunity. Refusals won't become an issue for another 9-12 months when we've immunized all the adults who want the vaccine, and we look to getting the reluctant onboard with the vaccination effort. We still don't even have a vaccine for anyone under 16. A few days ago, Dr. Fauci said there are clinical trials starting or set to start soon with children. This means we might have data on 12-18 year-olds sometime in the fall, but likely wouldn't have the data for elementary-aged kids until early 2022. So we're looking at another year before we can even start vaccinating kids.
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I beg to disagree! Ignorance is the cause of a lot of trouble. If you understand that a single person is all that's required to create a mutated strain which could possibly be worse than what's here now, then you understand why we all need to be vaccinated.
This isn't a virus that responds to social etiquette like hurt feelings. It should be mandatory to take the vaccine for the protection of all of us.