Some questions for all the nurses

**canoehead, BSN, RN** · Jul 18, 2002

I think that more education should imply more money.

But I also think that the hospital based programs put out a better nurse, who can jump in and make sense out of chaos.

I would be all for a 4 year program that emphasized patient care, and not writing papers. Also would like the opportunity for nurses to specialize in a particular area while still in school. (Like an honors degree) And please give us instructors that have wiped a butt within the last year... they don't have a whole lot of credibility with me unless they show signs of being a kick-ass nurse on the floor, as well as in the classroom.

rbez · Jul 18, 2002

hmm - that's really food for thought. As someone who has slogged through various academic trenches while working full time, I really believe that we need to have a process for "informed consent" before we begin any educational program.

Over the last couple of decades, a surprising number of new grads have told me that they really didn't know that much about educational alternatives when they began their programs. . and by the time they found out, it was too late to switch. Recent legislation is going to release a lot of federal $ to help people who want to become nurses, and hospitals are beginning to provide generous scholarships. But the major obstacle to a BSN is still the amount of liberal arts education that is associated with it. A lot of folks just don't want to sign up for a 4+ year stretch.

Maybe Canoehead is right -- it is time to take another look at undergraduate specialization. This idea has been kicked around every few years by the nursing academics. Nursing care may be getting too complex to keep turning out generalists.

Hooligan · Jul 18, 2002

Rhona1...let's throw another iron into the fire...what about those individuals who already have a Bachelor's degree and persue nursing as a second career? Should they have their own separate distinction as well?... It seems to me that there would be way to many salary scales. I truly believe that a person deserves to get paid for their merit...not how many years of school they've got under their belt. For example, a friend of mine recently quit a job (non-nursing, btw) because her superviser refused to pay her more money for the job she was doing. Shortly before she quit, they hired a new girl who had her Master's degree and paid her $10,000 more per year than my friend. This new girl had very few responsibilities and planned her wedding and painted her nails while my friend worked her butt of for these people. And why was this...? Well, she has her Masters. And that qualifies her to get paid more to sit around and paint her nails?...I don't think so. This has always been a pet peeve of mine. I think people should be paid based on their work performance. If they hold an advanced ed. degree and that increases their knowlege to better perform at work and they follow through by taking on more responsiblility then so be it. But to pay an individual more money just because they hold a higher degree is BS IMHO.

~Bean

WashYaHands · Jul 18, 2002

The intention of my post is not to fuel the debate over nursing education. I think that there are many other individual considerations such as life experience, clinical experience, etc. that contribute to our personal nursing performance regardless of the type of degree held. However, in defense of higher education and statements made that continuing education is of little value, I offer you one of over 4000 research studies that evaluates and supports baccalaureate nursing education. The research does not compare degrees, but simply implies that a BSN degree is not worthless. I cannot post the entire article, but I will post the reference and abstract.

Ryan, M.E. & Hodson, K.E. (1992). Employer evaluations of nurse graduates: a critical program assessment element. Journal of Nursing Education 31(5). 198-202.

Abstract: Accountability in higher education dictates implementation of a comprehensive evaluation plan. Employer evaluation of graduates is an important component of program evaluation and contributes a different view that is rarely reported in the literature. The purpose of this study was to establish a database by surveying employers of baccalaureate-prepared nurses, postgraduation, over a five-year period. Employer surveys measured perceptions of graduates' functioning. Findings indicated that graduates function above expected levels for leadership skills, nursing skills, communication skills, and professionalism. Systematic program evaluation by employers is recommended at one and five years after graduation. A tool for employer evaluation of baccalaureate graduates is discussed.

This article has 21 additional references listed.

Please dont misunderstand my post. I am not comparing degrees here. My purpose of this post is that if we as a profession are expected to be compensated for a higher degree, performance will have to be measured by employers to substantiate that cost to health care systems (much like this research indicated). So, yes, the proof would have to be in the pudding. But, I do not think education at any level is worthless or useless.

Linda

LasVegasRN · Jul 18, 2002

If money was no object, yes I would go for not only a bachelors degree but also masters - but not in nursing. I would get it in something having to do with business management because, IMO, that's where we are most needed in this day and time.

CRNI · Jul 18, 2002

I, too, do not wish to fuel the BSN vs. ADN/Diploma debate. However, as a BSN I would NEVER want to be referred to as a "Bachelorette Nurse." And definately, more education and/or specialty certification should mean more $$$$.

live4today, RN · Jul 18, 2002

i'm ashamed at times to be associated with all the drama regarding those who want to promote as well as demote the status of a licensed registered nurse simply because they are angry about having paid twice the moolah to gain an education.

when will this nonsense stop! :confused:

diploma, associate, and bachelor degree nurses all sat for the very same state board. hoorah to those who successfully passed and rightly earned the privilege of becoming licensed and registered to employ themselves as nurses. (applauding)

seems to me that only female dominated occupations make such a stink about rank and a desire to be recognized for choices no one asked them to make......they are choices made solely on their own desire to say they graduated from a four year college or university versus what people have called for years....the technical colleges.

my own father was opposed to technical colleges. he was also opposed to those high schools that were called vocational high schools when i went to school, and strictly forbid me to attend one. my ex-spouse attended one, and today has a bachelors and two masters degrees.....graduated at the top of his class to boot........obviously didn't hurt him any for attending the vocational or technical schools in order to further the education that he chose in order to do what he does for a living. did he have to go to those schools? no, but he chose to.

did nurses who have a bachelors have to choose to go that route to get a license to practice as a registered nurse? no, but they chose to do so.......no one coerced them to do it, they just did it.

did nurses who have an associates have to choose to go the route they went to become nurses? no, but they chose to do so...no one coerced them to do it, either.

did nurses who have a diploma have to choose to go the route they went to become nurses? no, but they chose to do so...no one coerced them to do it, either. if any nurse today should feel comfortable in the shoes they wear as a nurse, it should be the diploma grad. why??? because at one time, that was the only route for nurses to gain an education on site at the same hospital where they were exceptionally trained to be nurses of thousands and thousands of people before ajn came along with their political jargon and cursed the very world of the women who chose to become nurses by various educational routes. all of which are acceptable by every state board of nursing!

when oh when will this cat-fight stop???

why oh why does it have to be one way or no way??? isn't variety the spice of life, folks???

i have never once been put down by any patient for being an associate degree graduate. what matters is do you hold a license to practice in this country as a licensed registered nurse or not??? if so....what's all the bytchin for?

pull out your license to practice as a registered nurse and read it. what qualified you to have one was the fact that you passed the nclex exam, and met all the necessary requirements to get it. nowhere on your license does it state your particular degree or educational training. if a diploma, associate, and bachelor nurse were to stand in front of a group of patients who asked to prove that they are rns, all you need show them is your license. your degree choice has nothing whatsover to do with it. therefore.........i rest my case. :kiss :)

paigenp · Jul 18, 2002

I think part of our problem in nursing besides the financial compensation is the fact that we have too many lables in one perfession. There is still several generations out there that see RN and that is their nurse. Putting all the other lables on it is confusing as who wears what color scrubs. I agree with CRNI, I don't want to be call a "bachelorette Nurse" sounds like I'm leading a band. I worked hard and am proud of my BSN, but most importantly, I'm a nurse and proud of that.:)

Tookie · Jul 18, 2002

Good point paigenp

I have been confused and ghave asked for clarifiaction since l have been on this board about the differenct names and quals

I think l have now got it straight -

I do beleive that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse

Education makes us all bettter at what we do - some can afford in both time and money to take that to differeing steps of the ladder.

Some have the ability to be able to absorb utilise and perform at different levels also -. l still beleive that the word nurse infers an ability to care - l would like to beleive that within all of us that is our main motivation whatever the initials after the name -

To the original piont paigenp made - there are so many catergories and they are confusing - particualrly to outsiders like myself who try and follow your different discussions -

Anyway - l hang in there and 'listen'

Tookie

Maula, RN · Jul 18, 2002

A nurse is not a nurse is not a nurse. I was a LPN for 8 years before getting my 2 year degree. I thought I would learn nothing new. I did. There are things I learned in the 2 year program that were not covered in the LPN program. I was a RN for a year before going back to school for my bachelor's degree and am thankful everyday that I did. It's not about writing papers as many people think. It is about applying knowledge to what you already know. I did learn new things. But I am now better prepared to apply this knowledge to patient care. I think BSNs deserve more of a pay increase than the $.50-$1.00/hr. we currently get. Experience should count for something also. I am now considering going to school for a Master's degree and am convinced that as a Master's prepared nurse my knowledge base will be much broader. I think in order to unite as a profession RNs should be set apart from LPNs as our knowledge base and responsibilities are greater. I also believe that eventually we RNs should be required to have be Bachelor's Degrees. There is no other profession that has the problem that nurses have with being respected as a profession and I think all of us having a 4 year degree will solve some problems. It would be nice to talk to someone from North Dakota where all RNs are required to have a 4 year degree. This is only my opinion and I am entitled to that, aren't I?

disher · Jul 18, 2002

A new BScN should not automatically recieve higher pay based on her education. Skill,experience and ability are important factors and have likely saved more patient lives than formal education. How do we measure the value of the skilled nurses contribution? Is the nurse who's skill at assessing and intervening thereby saving lives and preventing disabilities more or less important than the nurse whose leadership skills are deemed effective?