Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 9

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   RN2B2005
    Here in Seattle, the University of Washington and Seattle University (a Jesuit college) offer a one-year accelerated nursing programme leading to a B.S.N. for people with a baccalaureate degree in any field.

    I know two nurses who've done this programme--one has a B.Sc. in biochemistry, and the other has a B.A. in education. They are both excellent nurses and although they both were nervous about hitting the ground running after leaving entirely different careers, they're both very happy they did so. I'm starting in an A.D.N. programme but plan to eventually get my B.S.N., not because one is "better", but because that baccalaureate degree is important to me personally.
  2. by   Dr. Kate
    Long before I went into nursing, I was reading my Mom's nursing journals on this topic. 40 years later, this has to be one of the most vicious discussions I have ever heard on the subject.

    As part of the generation of college students that lobbied for and won the abolishment of general education requirements in colleges and started the trend toward meaningful, practical education--I apologize. We/I had no idea what we were setting into motion. The purpose of a liberal education is not to get a job when you graduate. The purpose of a liberal education is to expand the student's awareness of, knowledge of, and understanding of the world through study of language, literature, history, philosoiphy, religion, economics, the social sciences, the arts, and science. Does that make a person with a baccalaureate degree better than someone without one--of course it doesn't. Does it guarantee they are better educated, no. It means they have been exposed.
    Nursing is a psychomotor skill set. You have to think and do. If you can do one without the other, you are not a nurse. And it doesn't matter if you can think or do, one isn't enough. All nursing programs teach people to think and do nursing. The more you think and do nursing, the better you get at it. A BSN isn't better than an ADN as far as being a nurse. And no one comes out of school with real nursing experience because until you are licensed and truly responsible and accountable for all your actions you're not a nurse. (I am speaking of RNs here, and mean no disrespect to LP/VNs. So please lets not start that one.) The real world is not like school or orientation or preceptorships or internships. Just as experirence hones skills, it also can perfect critical thinking.
    So, what does a BSN do for you. In terms of the skills of nursing, probably not much. In terms of understanding why you're doing what you're doing, for some people it may help, for others it won't. Does it expand your understanding of the world and hence of the people you care for? It would be nice if it did that for everyone, but it deosn't. That's the reality of education at any level--like vaccinations, it doesn't always take, i.e. have the ideal, desired effect.

    Again, I am sorry for being part of what has resulted in people viewing higher education as trade school. That was never my intent when I militated against general education requirements. But as in many things you don't know what the end will be when you set something in motion.
  3. by   Q.
    Dr. Kate: excellent post. Thank you.
  4. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    . I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills.

    how is quoting you putting words in your mouth?...in my ADN program there are requirements for math, history, sociology, psychology....and being the liberal university that they are, the program NEVER fails to promote cultural diversity almost adnauseum.......incidently, having the GOOD fortune to have been an LPN prior to taking the ADN, l had been exposed to working with many of the new grads from this university.....and they do not have a reputation for hitting the ground running......as most grads from any program do not either. My liberal education did not make me a better nurse, l doubt my pts could ever tell the difference in the care they receive r/t my liberal education....It has made me a more rounded educated person....but not an inherrantly "better" person or nurse.........a BSN does NOT have any more skills to bring to the bedside....only to mngmt etc......LR
  5. by   wv_nurse 2003
    This is a sensitive issue with me and perhaps I am being too sensitive, but I really hate it when people refer to my educational acheivements as "letters behind my name" or "alphabet soup."

    Susy K--I apologize, I never intended to belittle your (or anyone's) accomplishments. As a BSN graduate with 17 years experience, I admire anyone who goes back to school, obtains an advance degree, specialty certification, or in any way furthers their education.
    The only thing I wanted to say --is that very few patient's #1--know their nurses degree, or #2 care about their nurses' degree--they only care that they are CARED for.
    To generalize and say that any one nurse is better OR worse than another nurse-- based purely on educational background is both arrogant and clearly over-simpliflied--and not at all what I wanted (or thought) I was saying.
  6. by   ?burntout
    I normally do not get involved in these discussions, but I have had it.....

    To those of you that have your BSN, MSN, etc., you have my congratulations and up-most respect for all of your hard work

    I am speaking for myself here: at the time I went to nursing school, I could not afford to go and get my BSN-I tried for scholarships and grants, but it would not have been enough and my mother did not want me to work while I was in school-she felt I should concentrate on my EDUCATION. I do plan to go back and get my BSN sometime, because I want to specialize......

    Where I work, this conversation never comes up....we do not have time to have this debate. The times I have been a patient myself, I could have cared less if the RN taking care of me had an ADN, BSN, or MSN, just as long as he/she could do their job correctly and safely....

    We are in a nursing shortage....we should not be arguing this debate for what seems the hundreth time now...WE ARE ALL NURSES!
    Also, in my opinion, if the standards to sit for NCLEX is raised for all nurses to have a BSN, what about those, like me (or their families)who can not afford to go to a 4 year college, despite all the grant or scholarship money in the world, what about their hopes and dreams being demolished?! To me this situation could cause us to miss out on some great minds in our nursing field....make sense?
    .....yes, maybe I am being sensitive too, but what worries me is any FUTURE nurses seeing this argument are going to think that they are not good enough because they do not have a BSN.

    Stepping off of my soapbox now :imbar
  7. by   fab4fan
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Hey Fab, you're catching me in a conversational mood!
    I'm not sure how to phrase this, but by someone stating that having a BSN will increase professionalism in nursing, does that necessarily mean that ADNs/diploma diminish it? I guess, is there always an implied negative? Cause I know I sure don't mean it that way, and I'm pretty confident others don't.
    Do you get what I'm asking?
    Not you, Susy...that was a somewhat oblique reference to someone else; but I've made a promise to behave myself so I will go no further.
  8. by   moonshadeau
    As for the person who asked if anyone had tried getting their BSN.

    I went for 2 semesters of my BSN. Didn't like the school. And do not care for internet classes which do not suit my learning style best. Unfortuanately the entire university system uses the internet to help obtain your BSN while charging you master's level credits. I didn't feel that the university was doing much for me and nor will having my four year degree defer me from any job that I care for.

    So instead, I certified. I got my CCRN and am now working on my cardiac/vascular certification.

    Let me tell you that I get a lot more respect for passing my CCRN than I ever will for having my 4 year degree.

    Like I said before, until the 2 year colleges and the 4 year colleges get their act together on cirriculum and make the transition easier, then I personnally see no point
  9. by   PennyLane
    I agree that a BSN should eventually be the minimum educational requirement for an RN. And I think that, ideally, this route would offer both the purported superiority of hands-on experience that a current associate's degree offers, and the extra theory and leadership classes offered by BSN programs.

    As nurses we have people's lives in our hands. The responsibility is by no means small. And while I agree that experience is the best teacher there is, and patients may not care how many degrees their nurse has, the fact is that nursing has traditionally been a woman's job, and people therefore think that 'anyone can do it', or 'it doesn't take much to become a nurse'. ALL of us here know this, whether we're LPNs, RNs, BSN, whatever. Our education should reflect the amount of responsibility we bear. And I also agree with another poster (sorry, can't remember who) that said raising the bar may attract more men to the field.

    Yes, I am a student, not a nurse yet, so of course I don't know nearly as much as you all that are already practicing. My intent is to start a BSN program this year, and I may eventually go on to become an NP for acute care. --NOT management. Many people going for their BSNs and beyond still want to work at the bedside, believe me.
  10. by   PennyLane
    I'd like to add--we all seem to want to have more respect from patients, doctors, administrators, the media, etc. I'm sorry to say that hearing that you can become a nurse by completing a diploma program at a hospital does not sound like much to an outsider. I'm not knocking on anyone who has taken this route. At the hospital where I volunteer there is a nurse there who went through a diploma program, and I highly respect her. However, this seems like a relatively 'easy' thing to do if you don't have a clue about nursing, like the media does, for example.

    Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I think we should put our personal self-rightous ideas about who's better prepared and who is worth more aside and agree that we need to work together to gain the respect of the world. I very strongly think that making a bachelor's degree the minimum would be a big step in the right direction, imo.
  11. by   Stargazer
    Excellent post, Mel.
  12. by   New CCU RN

    I agree with you entirely on both of your posts.
  13. by   Q.
    Mel, great post!

    (sorry, just had to stick my nose in!)