Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L/min. What would you do?

Nurses General Nursing

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  1. Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L, What would you do?

    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think ultimately the patients wished should have been honored. I am a Nurse.
    • I think ultimately the patients wishes should have been honored. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. Paramedic/EMT.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Nurse.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Paramedic or EMT
    • I don't know, it's all too confusing
    • Leave me out of it. I don't want to participate.

148 members have participated

I got a call to go see one of my HH patients, who I am very familar with, because the family reported that her/his 02 sats were hanging in the 70's all day and even though she/he was not SOB they felt it should be coming up after breathing treatments and wanted to call before it got too late in the evening.

She/he is a chronic COPD'er, who has only one lung, who functions well with 02 sats in the low 80's. She/he has 02 BNC @ 2.5L/min. When I got there she/he was sitting up talking to me. She/he said she/he didn't feel in the least SOB, 02 sat was 73%, Temp 102 and her/his one lung was full of wheezes. I felt as though she/he should go to the hospital but that it was not an emergency situation. The family fully agreed. They said she/he preferred to go by ambulance so she/he wouldn't have to sit in the ER. I agreed. We called 911.

An EMT got there and asked what was going on. I told him. A few minutes later the ambulance got there and a paramedic came in. She saw me but asked the EMT what was going on. "Oh my God a sat of 73% crank her up to 6L/min. I said no. I explained why. She said "well we have to get her 02 sat up because she's not perfusing 02 to her brain. I said she's talking to you. Please do not turn her up to 6L/min you'll do more harm. She did it anyway. The daughter said "the last time you guys did this she/he ended up with a CO2 of 134 and ended up on a ventilator". The patient said please don't do this to me. The paramedic ignored everyone. The EMT turned it back down to 2L/min the paramedic saw it and turned it back up to 6L/min. She told the patient she would put her/him on a non-rebreather once they got her/him in the ambulance!

I was told that once the paramedics arrive they are in charge and what they do is their responsibility but how ignorant to not listen to the nurse, the family and the patient?

I will make sure this paramedic gets reported. I wonder what you guys thoughts are?

The only tools at my disposal are BP cuff, stethoscope, thermometer and pulse oximeter.

You are forgetting the most improtant tool that you have at your disposal. YOUR NURSING JUDGEMENT.

As a former Paramedica and as a ER ICU nurse now for 20 years I think a couple of things happened. Your judgement was off in this situation. The patient was an emergency with the symptoms that you described, one lung full of wheezes 3 days post hospital with high fever and COPD with sats in the 70's. That is an emergency by anyones book. Also your judement in calling the ER doc wrong. I agree with calling the ER to give them a heads up that the patient is on their way in but to tell the doc to turn down the O2 borders on diagnosing the patient and ordering treatment. The BON may look upon it as this was. Plus if I was a director of a HH compmay and I found out that a nurse told the doctor on the phone how to treat an ER patient with unsolicited advice I probably would fire that nurse due to the liability she potentially opens me up to. A bit of advice.

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.

I'm a little bit baffled why perceived "respect" or perceived lack of respect is being debated when the issue is treatment for an acutely hypoxic patient.

We can all kiss & make up later ... the key at that moment was to better oxygenate that patient, who was clearly just a few short slippery steps from being truly emergent.

I also want to repeat what I said in the other recent thread (Geriatric Nursing forum) re: hypoxia and COPD: please know that I will increase the O2 for any of you who are ever acutely SOB. I'd like to think that I could count on you all to do the same for me.

I'm a little bit baffled why perceived "respect" or perceived lack of respect is being debated when the issue is treatment for an acutely hypoxic patient.

We can all kiss & make up later ... the key at that moment was to better oxygenate that patient, who was clearly just a few short slippery steps from being truly emergent.

I also want to repeat what I said in the other recent thread (Geriatric Nursing forum) re: hypoxia and COPD: please know that I will increase the O2 for any of you who are ever acutely SOB. I'd like to think that I could count on you all to do the same for me.

MLOS, this patient was NOT SOB....

This patient did not feel SOB...I've gone several days where my asthma is really bad and when I finally go to the dcotor I am running around with sats of 85%. I've never felt like I was that low, but the labs and monitors indicate otherwise.

SOB IS a sensation,

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.
The last thing you want is to have this patient who is stable (for the moment at least) to decompensate and crash on you in the back of an ambulance. Not my idea of a good day.

That's how I was feeling about it. I wish the family would of have taken her in the car but they refused.

I spoke with my DON and she praised me for calling the ER doctor. Ok you can blast me now. I can take it. She was going to call the county ambulance service and talk about this matter but I haven't been back yet to see what the outcome was.

The patient is doing well. Awaiting results of blood cultures.

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.
MLOS, this patient was NOT SOB....

I'm a little bit baffled why perceived "respect" or perceived lack of respect is being debated when the issue is treatment for an acutely hypoxic patient.

The issue is hypoxia, not whether or not the pt. is experiencing the sensation of SOB.

Ya Know-- I Realllllly Think That The Pt. Could Avoid The Whole Situation By Either Becoming A Dnr, Or Accept The Emt's Judgement. I Work In Ccu, And I Really Think That, Since (1), There Was Enough Of An "emergency" To Call 911, And (2) The Ems Does This Every Day, Many Times A Day, That She Would Know What She Is Doing. If The Patient Did Not Want To O2 (and You Said That You Did Not Want), All She Would Have Had To Say Is "go Away, I'll Go On My Own!!!! Hope That The Patient Is Doing A-o.k.!!!!!

Specializes in ER.
That's how I was feeling about it. I wish the family would of have taken her in the car but they refused.

Would it have been better if the patient had decompensated in a car with no one with medical training or equipment?

Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.

Okay lets look at a little bit of the old A/P here...one lung doesn't do much for the slow add up of CO2 or even an acute case. Remember, it is the action of the lungs and adrenals first that help with acid base..lungs being foremost for acute. Okay one of those...oopsie, how are those adrenals that have been compensating for the one lung...proably exausted and not working top notch....this woman was satting down as I call it, and yes..a vent was more than likely needed as TREATMENT of the CO2 that had been building up....she needs that extra to compensate! SO her being on a vent isn't ment as a torture, a mistake, or anything of the sort...it is a TREATMENT to save her life. 70's! Yep...she was obviously acidotic...if you think it was in error check out her arterial blood gasses if you can! That my friends is simple a/p! That always overrides the fear of hypoxic drive which so many nurses others are in fear of...so much they overide many vital treatments in acute emergencies!

ALSO...A paramedic does NOT have to listen to the RN as far as taking orders! They take orders from protocol and a call in to their acting MD. So you may have felt ingnored, but they don't have time to hear the old "don't bump up the O's" from yet another nurse...sadly it has become typical and they let it in one ear and out the other because they don't have time to banter with a nurse...they have an acute emergency to deal with and all their brain cells need to be working on JUST THAT! Trust me, they heard you...they just didn't have the time to argue the fact.

Another reminder...unlike nursing, a patient in the back of an ambulance for the one and ONLY time in their medical situation will have a trained professional at their side doing NOTHING but monitoring them closely with only THEM in mind for 15 or more minutes! This is the only time they will ever really get this close and scrutinizing care...and most paramedics/emts have CO2 detectors and know signs/symptoms of hypoxia or hypercapnia better than most nurses (no offence towards those that know it well...but a home health RN may not know as much as ohhhhh say a paramedic!!!). And get this...they have the equipment to TREAT IT on the spot!

Like my hubby..a 13 year paramedic says "I will never withhold O2 to a hypoxic patient, and if I note there is a probelm I simply reduce the rate within seconds and can treat that...we have the technology (LOL on the last part)". HE also will admit that so many MD's or RN's think that all they do is plop the patient in the back and both medics go in the front and drive.....ummmmmmm NO! Why all the equipment back there huh?

Another fact, Paramedics and EMTs have a TON of CME they must do yearly...they are typical more up to date on the latest treatments in EMS than any of us! What CME do we have? Yeah...nada or so little it isn't funny!

And one more thing since I am on a bit of a soap box...don't anyone DARE send a patient into an ER when they are just trying to avoid a wait time! This patient was serious enough to go in this way...but I see LTC's sending in their patients for basically NOTHING by ambulance just to avoid wait times...there is NOTHING that makes them more special than anyone that has waited out in an ER room for hours so they can be treated! It is people like this that send valid patients that can't wait back home to become even more seriously injured/ill and admitted for something that could have been fixed easily! I do know that many LTC's do not have someone to drive a patient in, and need to use ambulance...but try to avoid that...it is killing our EMS and taking them out of service for real emergencies! A recent hit and run here showed that...poor 7 year old girl died because it took so long to get an ambulance because they were all busy with what we call BS patient calls and they had to pull one in from a great distance...My hubby was furious because he was nearer, but had to take in a little old lady with a sore foot into the ER! GRRRRRRRR!!!!! (it was a bunion by the way...nothing a MD or pediatrist could have seen and DX!!!!, all because the woman wouldn't stop wearing closed toe shoes...this was time number 4 for her going in for this in one year!!!!).

WHen paramedics or EMT's turn up my O2..I know they have the skill, protocol and sense to monitor closely and intervene quickly and I trust them! They can handle the situation far better than I, and get the patient to an ER for further treatment...again which I can't do. I trust them as I would trust other medics...they are a part of my team, and have the same mindset...to help patients to the best of our ability given our level of skill and education, and paramedics get much more than anyone gives them credit for!!!!!!!!

(oh hint...report them if you must or feel you should, their bedside mannor may need work...however, I would return the favor by pointing out the pulse ox readings and how long you let that go before calling 9-11 or even calling the MD??? *wink* ).

Specializes in cardiac med-surg.

hey lady, are you married to one or something ???? lol

Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.

Gee however could you tell...not to mention I am a paramedic wannabe! LOL!!!!!!!!! Huggles Muffie!

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